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New Collector In Need Of Some Assistance (Uk Cartwheel 1797 2 Penny)

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 634Next Topic  
New Member

United Kingdom
2 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2020  4:38 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add jcbill to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi all

I've been looking at obtaining some uk pre decimal coins and have bought a book Collectors' Coins: Great Britain 2020: British pre-decimal coins 1760 - 1979 to help

I had been using ebay but when looking for advice on here it seems this may have been a mistake - I didn't appreciate how many fakes were out there.

Anyway, one of my first was a cartwheel two penny however I've noticed the seller has sold multiple versions so I'm now a bit suspicious. The weight is about right though I was using kitchen scales.

This is the link for the one I purchased
https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI...991501173021

If it is a dud i'll take it on the chin, but would be grateful for tips on how to tell.

Thanks!
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United States
33563 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2020  5:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to CCF. Give it a bit and members will help.
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
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Canada
15121 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2020  7:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dorado to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To the Forum.
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United States
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 Posted 03/16/2020  08:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the Community!

Your post was moved to the appropriate forum for the proper attention.

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New Zealand
740 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2020  03:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Princetane to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a dead link now. But basically your cartwheel coins should be

Tuppence - weight 56 - 57 grams and diameter 41.5mm
Penny - weight 28 - 28.5 grams and diameter 37mm

Allow a 1 gram allowance for very worn coins.

They should look like this






As they were pure copper and not bronze, pitting and corrosion are acceptable on worn coins.

There was only one year of cartwheels - 1797.

Similar looking coins with smaller rims are dated 1799, 1806 and 1807 but these are Halfpennies and farthings 30mm and smaller.
Loving Halfcrowns. British and Commonwealth coins 1750 - 1950 and anything Kiwi.
If it's round, shiny and silvery I will love it.
Valued Member
United Kingdom
374 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2020  04:41 am  Show Profile   Check PaddyB's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add PaddyB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


With the link dead, can we have some pictures of what you bought? That is probably the only way we can tell you now if it is OK.
You might get some clues from how the seller was listing them - if he had lots of identical coins at the same fixed price, then it is a fair bet the were repros.
There are a lot of good condition genuine 1797 twopences around because so many people put them aside as souvenirs when they first came out. In VF condition you would expect to pay 30 or more, well worn examples sell for just a few pounds.
New Member
United Kingdom
2 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2020  8:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jcbill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for getting back to me, will take some photos and post tomorrow.

Hope you're all staying safe and well in these challenging times
New Member
United Kingdom
2 Posts
 Posted 04/07/2020  5:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jcbill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi sorry for not posting these links sooner, finally got to grips with imageshack
The weight is slightly less than it should be (though admittedly kitchen scales could be off) and they look a bit too 'new'
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img...6/iGDNHW.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img...6/0rArXi.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img...0/yPq1Me.jpg
Thanks in advance
Valued Member
United Kingdom
372 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2020  03:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hogarth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

5.5g is rather more than a little off.
These pennies weigh in at 28.3(ish)g, one full ounce of copper.
Valued Member
United Kingdom
374 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2020  04:21 am  Show Profile   Check PaddyB's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add PaddyB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
55g is not that far off for a tuppence, which should be 56 to 58g.

Having said that, I think this is a restrike at best, if not an outright forgery. The detail is clear but unnatural - too rounded and linear compared to the originals. The rim is too shallow. Overall it is really "too good to be true"!
If you paid up to 20 for it, you have done OK for a decent restrike example. A genuine one in something close to this condition would be 50 plus, and if you paid anything like that for it, you were had.
Here is one of mine for comparison:


Valued Member
United Kingdom
372 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2020  05:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hogarth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

My apologies, I read your scales as 5.5g rather than 55g.
Paddy is correct on both counts, this is around the right weight for a cartwheel twopence (two ounces of copper), but the detailing on your coin is all wrong. Look at Britannia, look at the sea below the ship.
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New Zealand
740 Posts
 Posted 04/10/2020  04:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Princetane to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agree with PaddyB and Hogarth - coin looks too clean and too fresh and seems too well finished, original coins not as sharp.

Why would anyone fake a copper coin? Then again an UNC Tuppence is about 500 in a catalogue!

Tuppences are much less common than the pennies.

Real coins look like mine (For worn ones in VG/Fine condition) and PaddyB's (for much nicer VF/EF ones).

A coin in most conditions should have at least some colour changing to green.
Loving Halfcrowns. British and Commonwealth coins 1750 - 1950 and anything Kiwi.
If it's round, shiny and silvery I will love it.
Edited by Princetane
04/10/2020 04:22 am
Valued Member
United Kingdom
374 Posts
 Posted 04/10/2020  04:44 am  Show Profile   Check PaddyB's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add PaddyB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I actually find it more difficult to get decent Pennies than Twopences here in the UK.

The penny remained in circulation until 1860 and most examples are very worn - often engraved or counter-stamped. The Twopence was not popular because of its weight. It was never made again and most seem to have been put aside as souvenirs or used as weights, so seem to turn up more often in decent condition.
Valued Member
United Kingdom
372 Posts
 Posted 04/13/2020  4:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hogarth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This looks like it may be the one you have. 5.99 here, but I've seen them cheaper.
If you paid more than five or six quid you should return it and ask for a refund.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1797-car...AOSwzgtb3cNI
Edited by Hogarth
04/13/2020 4:53 pm
Valued Member
United Kingdom
372 Posts
 Posted 04/13/2020  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hogarth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Look at the kip of this one. Jeez!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GEORGE-I...100752.m1982
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