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Need Info On Pc-5 D, Bank Of Upper Canada 1857 Half Penny. Please Look.

 
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 Posted 05/30/2020  3:23 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add yontan to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Years ago I noticed that some 1857 half pennys had rosettes that were "empty" - in the sense that the center was open, while most others were complete. I have several examples of each. But, I have never seen or heard anything about this anomaly. Is it so common that no one cares? Or is it something no one has noticed? I have found no info.




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Canada
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 Posted 05/30/2020  4:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think that it's just how the dies were made. For there to be a "center" in the rosette, the hub would have had to have a protuberance like the head of a pin to make the middle, unsupported except on a slender stalk. My guess is that it would have broken off after making X number of dies, so those would have no "center".
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 Posted 05/30/2020  4:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To quote Dr. Courteau

"1857 HALF PENNIES

I shall divide these tokens into two groups according to rosettes on obverses, which are found without or with inner dots.

One should also notice the way the rope around battle-axe ends on reverses, either with one dot, one dot and a line, or with two or three dots...

Group I. Rosettes on obverses without inner dots. From No. 159 to No. 189 inclusive...

Group II. Rosettes on obverses with inner dots. From No. 190 to No. 207 inclusive."

Provide a photo of the reverse and I will try to attribute to the specific variety.

doug


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United States
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 Posted 05/31/2020  12:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yontan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you both for your thoughts. Doug, here are the reverses. Never noticed the rope. Is courteau a book?

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 Posted 05/31/2020  1:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Doug ... after looking at the coins and rosettes, I don't think that they initially made any with clear centers. I think that there was always a "center" on the master and then the hub would have a extremely thin pin-like part of the die. It would have taken very few strikes of the hub to the die to break it off .. so then no center in the die. It normally took 2-4 strikes of the hub to the die being made to make a finished die, just like the large cents. Maybe I'm wrong, but it makes sense from a metallurgy standpoint
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Canada
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 Posted 08/24/2020  03:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinsnpaper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Remember, the dies will be oopposite to the actual coins. If a part is sticking up on the coin, it would have been made from a hollow in the die. The petals and the centre were all raised on the tokens, so they were all engraved into the die.
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 Posted 12/12/2020  5:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Concerning the 1st photo...

"Courteau variety 162. to wit:
Obv. The outline below man's r. arm ends lightly forked. Perfect r. top to N of BANK. Fig. 7 close to and a trifle higher than 5. In some cases with four die-cracks: from U to helmet, to R and to each point of ground.
Rev. The outline of U.J. below upright of E is lumpy, no frame t St-Andrews cross below same letter. Perf. and brok. dies, a long crack thro. crown, shield and KE of TOKEN. One Dot. R. 3."

colonialtokens

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