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1988 Penny Circle Anomaly?

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New Member
United States
22 Posts
 Posted 09/12/2020  09:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Two50twostroke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
merclover
I was having a conversation with another member in a thread, it is not the topic of the thread, but, is part of it. I will not be told I cant have a simple conversation in a forum and present a example. Please stop, it is a dialog and if it veers a little out of topic well then that's the direction it took. I posted an example of our conversation I don't see an issue with this.
New Member
United States
22 Posts
 Posted 09/12/2020  10:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Two50twostroke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
John1
I missed that I just took a look and ya they talk about my year. I posted a link where Blue Ridge Silver Hound on YouTube explains how it happens. It is at the very end and the last coin on his video so if you skip to the end you don't have to watch the entire thing if you don't want to. I would have to rewatch it my memory is not so good anymore due to illness for me to explain it. He is a knowledgeable guy in the coin community on YouTube. I just happened upon it right after posting this. My opinion is it happened at the mint, to the die, probably during the die making process.
Probably not a popular opinion but it is mine and everyone else has theirs. I kinda recall his deal about alignment or something like that. I guess I gotta watch it again. I will have to look and see how the die is manufactured and the tools and machines used in the making of the die used for striking the coin. Then the master die manufacturing. I wonder if a dowel like tool is used to line up the two die's before the impression is pressed? It is dead center of the coin.
When I worked for Boeing (just laid off in the first wave) I would hit the scrap bins for different metal to help in my painting of parts. A mint employee could come up with his own "tool". (just a thought). Anyway thank you for the link. My mistake for missing it.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2000 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2020  10:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Tiny circles and semicircles like this are generally referred to as "die rings". They are known in cents, nickels, and a few quarters. Most date from 2004 and later, but obviously some are much older. The cause, or causes of these die defects remain unknown.
Error coin writer and researcher.
Edited by mikediamond
09/16/2020 10:07 pm
Bedrock of the Community
United States
38545 Posts
 Posted 09/17/2020  04:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
wo50twostroke,
Mike is our "go to pro" so what he says ( I don't take to the bank) I go by.
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
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2830 Posts
 Posted 09/17/2020  11:22 am  Show Profile   Check Yokozuna's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Yokozuna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Unless I know I can trust the numismatist or company that produced the video, I don't really trust most the YouTube videos, so I don't watch them. Too many with misleading or incorrect opinions given as facts.

I did learn that you can turn charcoal into a diamond using peanut butter... WHAT? That's not true? Hmmm.
"Shine, shine a Roosevelt dime. All the way to Baltimore and runnin' out of time." Tom Waits-Clap Hands



New Member
United States
22 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2021  02:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Two50twostroke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I ended up watching the video again and I determined it is a different circle he is referring too.
I do have one question for the people who think it is PMD. If it is PMD how did they add metal to the coin since the circle is raised up? Does PMD take metal away and not add to it?
My theory is it is an indent on the die during the impression stage from an alignment dowel or tool that was failing or to much pressure was applied, or put on backwards. Something like a C clamp you know how they have the rotating foot on the clamp and a flat shoe on the other end? if they normally clamp it with the flat shoe end, on the impression side but had it flipped and the impression side was on the rotating shoe end that could leave a circle. The circle is dead center of the coin and raised up. This means there is extra metal like a Doubled Die would leave. How did the extra metal get there if it is PMD? It did not it is impossible for PMD to add extra metal unless you welded it or pressed it with something but that would leave other impressions in the coin. With the one extreme close up I posted you would see other marks and they are not there. Something they do at the mint does this. Do they ever clamp the die in a vise? If that vise had a shoe that could be replaced and the screw that held it in place was loose it could have left a ring. The die it's self how is it made what is the process? If they make the die from round stock steel on a lathe and after the impression was done there was an issue with the diameter of the die and they had to turn a bit more metal off to fit is it possible when they clamped it in the lathe to turn a few 1000ths off that caused it? I'm not sure the process of die making or if they even use a lathe making them. I do know industrial mechanics and worked at Boeing where we would take raw stock and form it into airplane parts I would paint before I got laid off. (thanks covid) Is there info on die making a guy could research. All I would do is need to see the process and I could tell you how it would be possible. I am very visual in learning. At some point I would bet something was not right and a die maker had to take a few steps back to correct something and this caused the circle. During final QC the QC person missed it and it was used to make 1988 pennies with a circle dead center in the obverse. IF someone has more info or you agree, sorta agree, or don't agree please enlighten me. Be respectful this is a discussion and the kid in me wants to know "WHY". I don't care if it is not worth anything other than a penny. Not every cool coin needs to be worth more than face value to be in my collection. If you don't care because it has no numismatic value save that BS for someone else I am not a value driven guy. That circle happened at the mint it is impossible for PMD to have caused it. PMD takes metal away or moves it leaving an indent someplace nether are present on the coin. If you still believe PMD caused it how? don't just type PMD and not give a explanation as how. You wonder why people are turned away from collecting coins yet when someone posts a question you all shred them to little bits and spit them out. (If you don't do this your the exception and you actually help people understand I'm not talking to you) I have yet to ask a question on a website and not get shredded when the coin has no numismatic value and I just happened to like it, want to understand how it ended up looking like it did and because it might be PMD it is taboo. At the end of the day it is still a discussion about coins on a website devoted to numismatic topics.
Edited by Two50twostroke
01/22/2021 02:36 am
Valued Member
United States
202 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2021  02:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IsThisAnything to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm going to come out of lurkdom long enough to say please be respectful. Merclover didn't write the rules, they are just helpfully reminding us of the rules we all agreed to when we joined this forum. This forum exists for polite and collaborative discussion, but any additional photos of other coins can quickly muddy the conversation.
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 Posted 01/22/2021  03:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Two50twostroke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Yokozuna why I do agree with this I watch them anyway because I take everything with a grain of salt. While it is YouTube if you have some decent knowledge about numismatic stuff you know who to watch. Content creators that know the hobby and when they tell the viewers info about coins and currency your not going to watch the guy who does not know *** Edited by Staff | The bad word filter is in place for a reason. Bypassing the filter and making the intended word obvious anyway is completely unacceptable. *** about it. Like Rob at Rob finds treasure on YouTube he knows a lot about error dates and what to look for. He will then show you when he finds one. If he don't know he will tell you he don't know. He backs up his info with known facts and/or where we got that info. Don't short change yourself (no pun intended) because you don't trust a youtube guy. Trust is earned and if you don't give it at least a real chance I think your missing out on some real numismatic stuff. If a guy is full of *** Edited by Staff | The bad word filter is in place for a reason. Bypassing the filter and making the intended word obvious anyway is completely unacceptable. *** call him out in the comments. I have done it on more than one occasion. Yes YouTube can generate hacks and disinformation but the great thing is you don't have to keep on watching it. There is a guy on YouTube has great knowledge on coins. has written books on it. Because he is an *** Edited by Staff | The bad word filter is in place for a reason. Bypassing the filter and making the intended word obvious anyway is completely unacceptable. *** and tells people to look at a million coins before they ask questions I refuse to use his knowledge and do not watch his program because I disagree with his how he presents it and how he talks down to everyone else. You might have to hold someone's hand for a few till they get it. Or answer the same question for the 1000th time. Another guy on YouTube never looks for variety or error coins I called him out one day and he told me "it was to much like work" I said "You are only giving the people half the info they need, they will fail to look for doubled die's error and verities because you think it is to much like work" "people look up to you for proper full information that you only give half of I think you are short changing yourself and them" (no pun intended)
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 Posted 01/22/2021  03:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add merclover to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Tiny circles and semicircles like this are generally referred to as "die rings". They are known in cents, nickels, and a few quarters. Most date from 2004 and later, but obviously some are much older. The cause, or causes of these die defects remain unknown.

These are Mike Diamond's words, words that we trust and generally agree with. If these "die rings" scratch the coin's surface hard enough, the scratch could displace metal and appear to be raised. Hope are they formed? There could be thousands of ways this type of PMD could occur. Laser experiment? An object sitting on the coin's surface? Who knows. Bottom line, these are circles of damage made long after they left the mint. Mike Diamond called them "die rings", we here on CCF see similar them once in a while and simply call them "UFOs" because no other explanation fits. As I have said before, these coins did not leave the mint looking like these, period.

ça va bien aller

Bedrock of the Community
United States
38545 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2021  04:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
WADR,if Mike says they are die rings then it happened at the mint before the coins were struck.
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
Pillar of the Community
United States
3265 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2021  08:56 am  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
100% not PMD, merclover.

Die rings, like die chips, die breaks, die scratches, die gouges, and die whatchamacallits are some defect on the working die itself. There are numerous examples of the die Wexler lists as 2004 1c WUFO-001 (I think I even have one somewhere). And if I'm not mistaken, a member here posted about finding one in the past week or so.

http://www.doubleddie.com/2397300.html
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 Posted 01/22/2021  09:17 am  Show Profile   Check Kloccwork419's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Kloccwork419 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Many of these been found of the years, less common on the obverse. All of them are directly center of the die. Ive always thought these were something to do with the lathe myself.
Whatever caused it, its not PMD
Edited by Kloccwork419
01/22/2021 09:17 am
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United States
2123 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2021  09:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Definitely not PMD for the reasons stated above.
Words of encouragement are one of the major food groups. We need to consume them regularly to thrive and grow.
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Canada
97 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2021  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bond632 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have read that when they are impressing a die or hub, the stock bar used is coned, to help with metal flow I guess. Maybe this has something to do with it.
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United States
5593 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2021  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chase007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
WADR,if Mike says they are die rings then it happened at the mint before the coins were struck.


Exactly.
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