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Question Regarding The Canadian Die Making Process

 
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 Posted 10/05/2020  12:56 pm Show Profile   Check JohnWayne007's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I was hoping a few fellow CCF members could help me out with a question I have regarding the die making process for Canadian small cents from 1920 to 2012. I feel like the answer to this is something I should know clearly, however no amount of research has brought me to a solid answer and I was hoping maybe you guys would be able to clarify for me.

During the die making process the RCM says that they go by the following.


Quoted from the Royal Canadian Mint site here https://www.mint_ca/store/mint/lear...tion-1200012


Quote:
Die making
Dies used to strike coins are copied from the reduced original design. A second reducing machine takes the brass plate and shrinks all of the information onto a steel die called the matrix, technically the original die. This can take up to 48 hours, after which the matrix is copied to produce the master punch, a process called hobbing.

The master punch is then hobbed onto another blank die to produce working dies (or proof dies), which are used in presses to make coins. Proof dies are capable of striking coins and leaving a frosted image on top of a mirror-like background.


From that, I understand that there is the Master Matrix, the Master Punch, and the working dies.


But than, during further research I found from the coinscan website it says.

Master Hub, Master Die, Hub, Working Dies.


So my question is, I have the RCM saying there is 3 processes/dies, meanwhile another site saying there is 4 and I cant for the life of me figure out the correct order in which these dies are made.

I would like to know as accuratly as possible which die comes first and the correct order in which they go if anyone can help me out.

This may be an easy answer for some so forgive me for not knowing, however I have been looking for a while now.

I understand how the process works, how hubbing works, how die making works but again, I just cant seem to find the correct order.

Thank you in advance!
Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
Valued Member
Canada
71 Posts
 Posted 10/05/2020  1:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SP67 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But than, during further research I found from the coinscan website it says.

Master Hub, Master Die, Hub, Working Dies.


I guess 4 steps is more logical instead of 3 because each step is a mirror image of the previous.

Master Hub (positive image), Master Die (negative), Hub (positive), Working Dies (negative), and then the coin (positive).

If a 3 step process is involved that would imply that the Master Hub would be negative.


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 Posted 10/05/2020  2:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Matrix, submatrix, hub are used interchangeably depending on who is writing, as are what's the "master".. By Stokrooky's first book on the 1858 that goes through this completely, it's a great book that goes through all of the minting proc3esses for the original coins struck and the appropriate names that are still used. The tittle is "The 1858 Cents of Provincial Canada". It lays out how everything started, the processes, and all the p[olitic hurdles that came before there was any striking. It's a GREAT history book. He was in London to do all the initial research.
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Canada
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 Posted 10/06/2020  12:53 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bill, the question was on small cents... the die making process would apply (and shipped over to Ottawa) in the earlier days, but this is a Royal Canadian Mint process...
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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 Posted 10/06/2020  01:24 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
JohnWayne007 - your Royal Canadian Mint source would apply to the modern numismatic branch (i.e., NCLT) of the Ottawa Mint.

Also, die making has radically changed in recent times, computer design has made the plaster cast, large brass plate and reducing machine, obsolete.

For the production of most of the small cent series, you have:

- plaster model, and its use, via rubber molds, brass castings and a reducing machine, to produce a master steel matrix
- that matrix, would often have the last number missing on the reverse, as it was used for multiple years (without the need for a master matrix)
- then the matrix would then make a punch, which in turn creates a master die
- the master die would have the last digit in the date added (sometimes) and would create working punches
- working punches, would then create working dies

David Bergeron of the Bank of Canada Currency Museum was nice enough one day to lead me into the vault, and show me the process firsthand... where I took crappy photos with my phone.

Here is a plaster cast (left) and a rubber mold (right) for the 1971 nickel dollar:


Large brass plate for the reducing machine:


Here is a master matrix for a Voyageur nickel dollar:


Here is a master punch for a Voyageur nickel dollar:


Then a master die for a Voyageur nickel dollar:


Then a working punch for a Voyageur nickel dollar:


Here are working dies (note the mirror polish, these are specimen dies):


"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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 Posted 10/06/2020  01:34 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you are researching for a book JohnWayne007, it might be worth the effort to do two things:

1. visit the Bank of Canada Currency Museum in Ottawa, and make an appointment with David Bergeron (curator), he can show you examples, (as he showed me) of each step of the coin production.

2. visit the Royal Canadian Mint in Winnipeg, and ask for a breakdown of the production plant how working dies are made now (computers, laser cut steps in the die making process, as well as the presses used to strike the latter years of the 1c coin (note that the Ottawa mint is tooled for specimen, proof, bedazzled colourized stuff, etc.)
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Canada
231 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2020  1:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add the_sifu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Edit: More help,
http://www.coinscan.com/err/dvl.html

Skip to 1:40 secs in RCM video below
3YX9egbUNX4


Edited by the_sifu
10/06/2020 3:41 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
715 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2020  12:14 pm  Show Profile   Check JohnWayne007's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all who have replied, your information has been very helpful.

I had a feeling that the reason the RCM had only mentioned the matrix, the master punch and the working dies was due to recent computerized technology that enabled them to bypass certain processes but I wasnt 100% certain. I just thought that maybe the RCM would have mentioned the older process and order they used to use on their website at some point and was updated to the new process but I couldent find anything.

Coinscan was last updated in 2010 and the RCM updated their site much more recently, so I suppose in a sense both process are correct but for different time frames.

My original conclusion and order I already had written down in my research before reading the die process on the RCM site and getting myself confused, was the master matrix creates the master punch, the master punch creates the master die, the master die creates the working punch and the working punch creates the working dies.

But once I seen the die process on the RCM website I thought either they made a typo on the site (not uncommon), or the process being shown is simply the updated computerized version and is not the old process I had originally written down in my notes.


SPP-Ottawa,

The research regarding this aspect of the die making process was more towards general knowledge and making sure what I do know and already have written down is correct for the appropriate time period.

As for your recommendations regarding visting the Bank of Canada Currency Museum in Ottawa and Royal Canadian Mint in Winnipeg those are most certainly on my to do list, however due to the whole COVID situation going on I have currently reduced my travel plans and restricted myself to staying local for the time being.

the_sifu,

That video was very informative and exactly the kind of information I was looking for. I go on youtube frequently and have not seen that video before, very much appreciated!
Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
Edited by JohnWayne007
10/07/2020 12:15 pm
Valued Member
Canada
231 Posts
 Posted 10/12/2020  2:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add the_sifu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That video was very informative and exactly the kind of information I was looking for. I go on youtube frequently and have not seen that video before, very much appreciated!


You're welcome JohnWayne007, glad I can help you and the coin community in general.

One more video found below, if you have not seen this one also. The lady in the last video that starts at 1:42, is also in the video below at 3:44.

Please start watching at 3:00 below for the die making process.
Y0gR9Fn5qsQ
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