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1959 Error Penny NGC Graded MS-66 Huh?

 
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Valued Member

United States
175 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2020  4:22 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add navycapt1635 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
All,

I was looking for 1959 error coin examples and I came across this one. Is the error on the "IN GOD WE TRUST"?

I was shocked at the NGC Grade of MS-66 Red. It does have a nice deep red luster. But, on the obverse, I see a large gouge on the back of Abe's head; 3 other prominent scratches on his temple and behind his ear; at least 6 small scratches (not hairlines) on his face; a moderately deep short scratch on his collar running NNE to SSW; and a smaller scratch on the back of his collar (to the right of "LIBERTY".) On the reverse, I see only one obvious flaw--a moderate scratch at the top of the steps across the two middle columns. Based on everything I've learned from the many photos and coins I've seen, including mine, I would grade this coin at a maximum of MS-63 RD. I am uploading one of my coins that you estimated at MS-65+ for comparison (2 lighting angles of the obv and 1 of the rev). Could some of you take a look at this link and tell me what I'm missing?

https://www.davidlawrence.com/product/2068636/

Thanks.

Bill



Valued Member
United States
175 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2020  4:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add navycapt1635 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All,

I have added two more reverse photos, but still can't capture the darker red of the coin. It is the same color as the obverse.

:)

Bill

Pillar of the Community
United States
1219 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2020  5:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
the coin is a dog. But it is a 1959 Lincoln FS-101. However as far as the head goes, I believe that is a strike through strike through wire perhaps, and a whole lot of the lines on the coin are die abrasion lines on obverse and reverse. probably over worked it polishing out a clash.
as far as the grey spots, I was thinking exposed zinc, then I remembered this is a 1959 and those are all likely inclusions unmelted metal or slag possibly.

Like I said the coin is a dog for eye appeal, the weakness of the jacket and tie collar, to neck transition, almost no beard, ear is mostly missing, the die was polished to heck and back.

this is a Late Die State example.
on stage C the doubling is most noticeable on the "59" in the date. Specifically there's separation on the stem of the last 9. Everywhere else the letters just look a bit thicker, also the L in liberty has an odd almost "folded over" look to it on the stem of the L as opposed to the foot of the L.

Fairly certain this is an stage C LDS example, it's far beyond a stage B of the die. it has the die crack on lower lapel and every bit of what a late Die state obverse and reverse should look like with some added bonus nonsense included that happened to the planchet during manufacture and to the coin during strike.

hate to break it to you but what you're missing...... for this variety in the stage C late die state, this is as good as it gets. and it's a top pop tied 1 of 6 with none graded finer.
There is no Stage A or B graded higher either. LOL.

the others tied with it are just slightly more appealing, less grey spots. They are dogs also though. this is every bit how it left the mint with some very slight contact marks that keep it from getting 67 or higher.

go on the NGC site in coinfacts and check them all out by grade tiers by searching "1959 DDO FS-101 1C" actually this example has more of the strike through than other examples have my guess is the object got stuck in the die or something.
Edited by Big-Kingdom
10/28/2020 5:29 pm
Valued Member
United States
169 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2020  5:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgan Nerd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There ain't no way that can be MS66!
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 Posted 10/28/2020  6:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add navycapt1635 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks so much for your detailed response. OK--I know very little about the minting process, but I do understand that it is an error coin and I know that that the 1959 year had a lot of problems. So are you're saying that, on the David Lawrence coin, all of the scratches, dents, and marks are the result of the minting process? I guess my question is "how can you tell?" It is especially difficult for me and probably most others (without your knowledge and experience) to see the 25-plus "seemingly random and different kinds, sizes, shapes, angles, and depths of the imperfections as meeting the NGC definition of MS-66 (Very well struck with minimal marks and imperfections). My uneducated comment would be to give the coin "credit/increased value" for being a mint error, but to grade it differently, especially lacking "eye appeal", what I have read and been told is one of, if not the most important factor in grading. It just seems inconsistent with all of the literature I've seem and read on grading. Some of the other coin forum members responded to a question I had about different coins being graded by different scales and universally, they told me that there was only one scale. Please don't get me wrong--I am truly appreciative of the information/education, but I guess I will just have to disagree with that approach/philosophy.

Again, thanks for your help and candor.

Best,

Bill
Bedrock of the Community
United States
16690 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2020  8:53 pm  Show Profile   Check BadThad's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just another example of "buy the coin and not the slab". That said, the obverse slab picture is probably the most representative of the coin. It is a pretty smooth strike and I can almost see the 66. However, besides the spotting (which may have developed after slabbing), there are some pretty major obverse hits. This coin is a 63 by any other TPG today. I bet NGC would like a take back on this coin!
Lincoln Cent Lover!
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Canada
3191 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2020  9:50 pm  Show Profile   Check silverwolf's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add silverwolf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
if it wasn't for the variety, the coin is worth 15-20$ in ms 66 red..
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 Posted 10/29/2020  06:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thad are you sure about the hits on the obverse? Every example I compared it to looks like this in top pop and lower. Some have better eye appeal, less marks but they all look beat up at first look.
This one's gouge on the head is longer than others even but others have it, NGC or PCGS.

Picture of the coin by the cert on NGC look worse than the ones here even. As do all the other graded examples that have pictures of it.

I really think this is one of those coins that's being misinterpreted as damage when it's Late die state and weakness. As I stated it holds it out of being MS67 or better and it's definitely a dog, but these things aren't damage at least not post mint damage.

I dug into it, they all are this bad at late die stage. this one just has worse eye appeal than the others.... just not by much worse. Lol

The pictures on this thread really aren't representative of how this coin looks to the eye. These pictures make it look actually better than the coin was when NGC took their pictures for the site.
Edited by Big-Kingdom
10/29/2020 08:18 am
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United States
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 Posted 10/29/2020  07:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Navycapt1635,

"Very well struck with minimal marks and hairlines."
You are correct that is the NGC definition of MS66. it's very generalized though for the layman to understand but grading coins is actually pretty nuanced and detailed. you'll notice down the scale it's like "Fully Struck, Strong, Sharp, Very Well, Well, Average, slightly weak, weak. there's a difference but it's small between each grade. and that's for starters on the nuances.
The coin is "very well struck" the rim is strong and clear, the lettering is very solid, and the outlines of the devices are deep, the the die however is deteriorated and at the end of it's life, a late die stage.

Let me ask you this? Does a die clash exclude a coin from MS67? How about a die crack or cud? How about doubled die?
Nope it doesn't.
NGC definition of a MS70 is "A coin with no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification."
Errors or production imperfections doesn't necessarily exclude a coin from MS70. BUT overall error coins, especially proofs which are easier to hit a PR70, are never graded PR70, errors always have even a slightly impaired luster that keeps it from getting a PR70, same applies to MS coins really. The MS69 or MS70s are rare unless it's a silver eagle, lol.

As for grading, if effects on the coin are mint made theoretically it *should not* affect the grade. However, the state of the die may affect the amount and character of the luster present (which will affect the grade).
The state of the die will also affect how much fine detail is left in the design (which will also tend to affect the grade). A clash, die cracks, die polishing, or some surface distortion from die wear will affect the eye appeal (which may not affect the grade technically, being a mint made effect, but it will affect the value to a prospective buyer depending on if they find it appealing or unappealing).

It's not a perfect coin, and it's not graded as a perfect coin either. 2

But I challenge you to find any MS66 example of a 1959 Lincoln cent FS-101 that you think deserves the MS66 grade. I don't think you'll find one, if you do its going to sell for more like $800-$900 and it will be an earlier die stage.

As far as David Lawrence.... he's asking $400 for it. Would I pay $400 for it? Nope I wouldn't but it doesn't change the fact that it is a top pop NGC 1 of 6 at that level and none higher and PCGS has graded 2 at MS66 none higher..
which begs the question, A total of 8 graded MS66 and none higher,,, if it's a top pop coin, why is it only $400?
Checking PCGS in all grades, they have about 75 pieces of 1959 Lincoln FS-101 graded. I assume NGC has a similar result. Maybe there's a few hundred examples encapsulated over all companies. 300 or so.
Less than mint state, it's probably not worth the grading fees really, so not sure how many there might be at AU and lower out there ungraded.

It actually has good luster for how bad the die was but it's ugly. Doing a bit more research a MS65 sells for $100-$350 depending on the die stage. MS64s below $100.

They aren't bag marks, or circulation scratches or hairlines from rub, All the the marks are die wear also considered "die markers" and I also feel the silver/grey spots are planchet inclusions but I'd have to see it in hand to confirm it. None of this should affect the grade severely, but it does affect the grade... and certainly the price. An earlier die stage like a B, middle die stage, is worth double the price of this. Early die states exist, but at lesser grade, and even then they had die abrasions all over the place, and deeper. Maybe most examples lost to time and attrition rate... it would be interesting to find out how ling after 1959 it was discovered or if it was found right away.


Edited by Big-Kingdom
10/29/2020 09:57 am
Valued Member
United States
175 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2020  09:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add navycapt1635 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks everyone for your insights! I don't completely understand the mint error issues, but appreciate the concepts you describe. I, however, would never pay much for this coin. As one member of the forum told me several years ago "eye appeal matters." Always learning.

Best,

Bill
Pillar of the Community
United States
9429 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2020  11:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A 65 can have several small marks and abrasions on both sides. this coin is nicely struck up on both sides. 66 can still have small marks. there does appear to be a little more marks on the jaw and cheek than I would like to see on a 66 though. I think the even full red color enhances the eye appeal on this coin along with the strong strike is possibly why they pushed to 66. without the full red and full strike up I think they would have graded it 65
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