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Ebay - Fake 1897 Philippines Peso?

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Valued Member
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92 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2020  5:53 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MasterKromm to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

So, I am getting ready to list a few coins on eBay, as such I always "scope out" the competition... The above coins is a fairly obvious fake/copy, yet it has a number of bids and 11 watchers!?! I have reported it to eBay, but am curios to see what, if anything, happens. Thoughts?
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 Posted 10/30/2020  6:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

People collect contemporary counterfeits, perhaps that is one.
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 Posted 11/01/2020  2:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
MasterKromm I am one of collectors who specialize in Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit (CCC) coins (usually crowns with a primary focus on Mexican issues - but this type would be included).

However, this coin is clearly a fraud - one made to defraud collectors of genuine coins. The seller may or may not know this.

I doubt the seller was attempting to defraud collectors of counterfeits because he didn't mention that it was a counterfeit or call it a CCC.

The likely reason for the bids and watchers is one or more of the following:

1. Novice bidders may think it is genuine. That is unfortunate but not eBay's problem legally.
2. Novice counterfeit collectors might think it is CCC. Also not a problem.
3. Someone like myself wants to see what it sells for.

Actually eBay should not terminate the coin without first notifying the seller to see if he will voluntarily remove it. The policy being enforced at eBay is "Let the buyer beware" - removals of items as counterfeits or forgeries requires expertise that eBay does not have or want. Too many removals will result in exactly what eBay was threatened with back in 2013 - lawsuits by the makers of Numismatic Forgeries which violates local (for THEM) non-US laws.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon or from me directly if you want it signed.
Edited by swamperbob
11/01/2020 2:20 pm
Valued Member
United States
92 Posts
 Posted 11/03/2020  10:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MasterKromm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ swamperbob

Wow, thanks for all the insight, a lot of valuable information! I was unaware of eBay's unspoken policy, for fear of lawsuits filed by Numismatic forgers. Though it does make sense, in an odd way at least... eBay will most certainly remove Pre-Castro regime Cuban coins and threaten to suspend your ability to sell should you list a Cuban coin. So I know eBay will unfairly/unjustly/indiscrimately police numismatic coins, especially considering the star pesos were minted in Philadelphia + designed by Charles Barber (sorry for the unrelated tangent, eBay can be trying at times).

Since you mentioned your area of expertise is Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits with your primary focus on Mexican issues, would you be willing to check out an 1841 8 Reales I have in my possession that I feel is a counterfeit (though I am no expert myself - so I could be off base)? I will start a new thread with some pictures shortly.
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 Posted 11/03/2020  11:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
MasterKromm Definitely post pictures of any Cap and Ray 8R and I will give you my opinion. Basically that goes for all world coins. There are people on this forum that have years of expertise in many different types of coins. Why risk buying or selling something you are unsure of?

Re: eBay policies. I need to be a bit more clear. Based on my personal experience working for eBay on the Coin Watch Committee, I believe eBay is genuinely doing their best to follow policies that will protect knowledgeable buyers and stay within a framework that prevents nuisance lawsuits from bankrupting eBay. As proof I would point to the appearance of a preference for buyers when a sale is disputed against an overseas seller and the policy of eBay directly paying for losses under their guarantee - even if they can not collect from the seller.

As further proof of their wish to provide a safe venue for coin collectors (eBay) supported the 8 year experiment with the Coin Watch Committee (negotiated with the ANA). The CWC was composed of professional coin authenticators and dealers who actively reviewed auctions and terminated those violating eBay rules. That enforcement actually cost eBay a lot of money in terms of fees on sales cancelled by the CWC.

As a result of CWC actions, eBay learned that international law provided a huge loophole for Numismatic Forgers selling their wears in the US and elsewhere. They found out that it is legal for a person or company in China, France or Spain (just to name three of many locations) to manufacture, sell and ship Numismatic Forgeries to any location worldwide. These are the people who threatened to sue for a disruption of a legal business.

As it turns out, the only thing illegal in such a transaction is a violation of the HPA (Hobby Protection Act) by the buyer (in the US) of the forgery. That person became an "importer" of an item that is illegal to possess without the word COPY stamped into it. So these foreign entities had a basis to file a suit and regardless of the outcome it would cost eBay a fortune to defend.

The ONLY legal defense available to eBay that was also a viable business solution, was to return to the originally intended policy that eBay was strictly a VENUE under the law and not an Auctioneer.

The difference between the two is that a venue possesses no expertise in what is being sold where an auctioneer has implied expertise so that he/she does not sell fakes. As a venue, eBay is simply renting space to sellers to present their goods to buyers who visit the venue. The bargain is between the seller and the buyer. In that situation the "Let the buyer beware" rule applies and eBay avoids being sued.

That is why the CWC was disbanded we were experts and we were effectively making eBay look like an auctioneer. All eBay employees who supervised the committee actions were also relocated so that they would have no expertise in the area of sales they managed.

So did the good guys loose? The answer is up to the one looking at the question.

A beginning collector may say yes, because he/she stands to loose money buying "bargains" that are worthless.

I say we didn't loose, we just have to turn our efforts to educating buyers both experience and novice about Numismatic Forgeries and how to spot them. We need more places to explain how many of these worthless frauds are in the market place and what to look for.

On my old office wall I had a sign that read "Buy the Book before the Coin". Now I need to make one that reads "Consult the internet before you buy the coin".

No one will ever stop novices from being fooled. That is how they learn. It is too bad, but it is a lesson that sticks.

That is my goal now to help anyone who asks at no cost to determine if what they are selling or buying is genuine.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon or from me directly if you want it signed.
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