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Shipments From Europe (Italy)?

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New Member
United States
40 Posts
 Posted 11/11/2020  08:49 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add cjh5801 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I just had an eBay purchase for an 1806 coin cancelled and received a refund from a dealer in Italy who said that there was a new law that prohibited him from sending pre-1950 items to non-European countries. Sounds odd to me, but I was getting cold feet anyway so no worries there. But does such a law exist or was I just being snowed (i.e. misled)?

Clark

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United States
1261 Posts
 Posted 11/11/2020  12:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisEd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, there is a ban on the export of "ancient art" from Italy to ex-EU.

https://coinweek.com/ancient-coins/...-italy-dont/


Quote:
Since 2001, the US has restricted the importation of ancient art and artifacts from Italy. This ban applies to US collectors and art and coin dealers as well as to arts institutions such as museums.


https://culturalpropertynews.org/it...ded-to-2025/
Edited by NumisEd
11/11/2020 12:36 pm
New Member
United States
40 Posts
 Posted 11/11/2020  1:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cjh5801 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, Dieuwer. I also collect ancient Roman coins, and was aware of the ban for those, but as I mentioned this particular coin was minted in 1806, and the dealer said the "new law" applied to items manufactured prior to 1950. The MOU wouldn't seem to apply.
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
18695 Posts
 Posted 11/11/2020  3:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you still wish to bid on pre 1950 coins from Italy then
go to leading internationally recognized public auction websites.
At least, there is a better chance that the coins would be genuine, although the items offered may be well up market and fees higher.
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 Posted 11/11/2020  7:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Certainly the Italian antiquity laws have applied to medieval and Renaissance coins, as well as ancients for a long time, as I have had shipments held up for several months while the seller (usually a large auction house) went through the paperwork to provide the required "export license.".

But 1950 is a bit surprising. I have inquired recently of an Italian seller on eBay about an 18th century Italian coin, and was not told there was any problem to sell to an American.
Edited by tdziemia
11/12/2020 08:32 am
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
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 Posted 11/11/2020  8:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If there is a semi fixed supply of ancient and medieval material, the prices may well go up in the medium term, at least.
I feel that European Governments will still release a limited supply of approved national Heritage coins onto international markets, if the profit motive is there.

The U.S. Government may well follow this policy as well, for their own historically significant early coinage.
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 Posted 12/05/2020  2:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I won a couple of medieval Italian coins in November at an auction held in Italy.

No mention of any problem to send the coins to the U.S., only of the process to obtain the export license, which takes a month or two, but this has always been the case in recent years.

I think your Italian seller just didn't want to go through this process.
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 Posted 04/29/2021  1:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I thought I would bump this thread with an update.

Coins from the auction in November, 2020 which I mentioned have still not shipped, and the auction house just sent this e-mail a couple of days ago:

Dear friend,
Please we want to inform you that we are really sorry for the delay in the delivery of the items you purchased at our e-live auction.
Unfortunately, the delay doesn't depend on our will but is caused by the fact that recent Italian law obliges the seller to obtain an "Export Certificate" before sending ALL OBJECTS (COINS, MEDALS, BANKNOTES, TOKENS, STAMPS ETC. ) OLDER THAN 70 YEARS.
This document is issued by a Local Ministerial Office which takes a long time to issue the authorization.
However, this is the only way to legally trade precious coins in Italy.
In recent days, our Legal office made a complaint to the competent Ministerial Office for the issue of the "Export Certificate" and we were assured that the Export Certificate will be issued before May 30, 2021.


To their credit, they went on to offer a refund to anyone who prefers this to waiting another month.

This is a smaller Italian house, and I wonder if they are just getting muscled out of the queue by others with more influence.

If anyone else had their coins take fully 6 months to go through the process, I would be curious to hear.
Valued Member
Russian Federation
321 Posts
 Posted 06/16/2021  10:21 am  Show Profile   Check Slerk's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Slerk to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe that such laws only harm. This greatly hinders the cooperation of numismatists and auction houses around the world. I also notice that the coins that really have historical significance for the country of issue are located in more rich countries and almost disappear from their native countries.
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 Posted 06/16/2021  2:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I also notice that the coins that really have historical significance for the country of issue are located in more rich countries and almost disappear from their native countries.

Hence the reason for these new laws, to try and keep them at home.
Gary Schmidt
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 Posted 06/16/2021  3:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And it is clear those laws are having some effect.

The Italian auction house I referred to upthread will no longer ship outside of Italy on the majority of lots.

Other Italian auction houses have added statements in their Terms of Sale about the lengthy export license process, and/or certain lots they will not ship outside Italy
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13727 Posts
 Posted 06/16/2021  10:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The problem seems to be partly the slowness of the bureaucracy in that part of the world, and partly the attitude and mindset of the antiquities and culture bureaucracies world-wide, that collectors are part of the problem and should therefore have obstacles thrown at them (fees, delays, paperwork, confiscation, etc) that make them hopefully give up on collecting things.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
New Member
Viet Nam
2 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2021  03:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinColl123 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tdziemia

I had experienced similar issues with a number of Italian coin auction houses since September 2020 and I think I know which particular small Italian house you refer to (auction Nov 15), as I received a similar massage from them. Couple of weeks ago they confirmed they got the export license, but they still have not shipped my coin (silver Italian coin end of 15 century) to my current address in SE Asia.
Similar issues I had with at least 4 Italian houses, some of them are large. Hence, the issue is not the size of the house.
Average waiting period for all of them to get the license is 4-5 months indeed. Please note that in one occasion Italian authorities refused to issue an export license for a Roman bronze sestertius.
I later was informed by one of the Italian houses that going forward they will be able to get the license for Italian mints faster, but unable to get the authorization for Greek or Roman coins at all, as the export of the latter is prohibited.

Therefore the problem is unfortunately twofold: the bureaucracy coupled with virus related slowing down and either new directives or stricter law enforcement.
Edited by CoinColl123
06/20/2021 08:05 am
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 Posted 06/20/2021  11:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@CoinColl, there is some good news. I received the Italian coins on Friday . So, maybe yours will arrive soon.

I agree with your assessment. I think this is the third time I have received coins that went through the Italian "export license" process. Twice before the pandemic, it took 3-4 months between date of auction and receipt of coins. This time 7 months.
Maybe you know this other source ... Artemide has a lot Italian material, but is based in San Marino, so there is no issue with the export license.

And, by comparison, one day before the arrival of my Italian coins, I received a package from Poland that took only 8 dayS!
New Member
Viet Nam
2 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2021  12:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinColl123 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good to hear you've got them! I have issues with both export from Italy and import to Vietnam, as it is required to get import license before one gets his coins. The process is very cumbersome and inconsistent unfortunately. Have 2 coins (from Sweden and San Marino (Artemide)) stuck in Vietnam custom because of this.

I know that one more house moved to San Marino just a few months ago, Aurora. Besides there is a major one - Nomisma, I am sure you are aware of. You can buy and ship both Italian and Roman coins from them.

For other Italian houses, like Bolaffi, Crippa, NAC, Bertolami, etc., you can still obtain export certificates, hopefully in less than 6-7 months now. However, I understand if you buy from them Roman coins they will not be able to get the license.
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