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Graders At Major TPG Buying And Selling Coins

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 543Next Topic  
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3636 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  9:05 pm Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Will preface this topic buying saying , I am pretty sure that individuals employed by PCGS and NGC are not allowed , as a condition of employment , to buy and sell coins on their own accord.
Here is the scenario , a Top employee of one of the two companies bought
Coins off of us on two occasions . The first occasion went off without a hitch
and the coin ended up grading quite well and is now holdered . Now I had no idea at the time the individual was a top employee of one of the top services .
We offer a no argument no fuss no muss 14 day return privileges as we are
members of the ANA and strictly adhere to their policies .
This brings us to the second transaction . A rather substantial purchase of two fairly pricy coins through EBay / PayPal.
Upon delivery , buyer launches immediate EBAY Return ( within an hour )
and a tracking number shows same day USPS , coins to be returned to our
USA office . 14 days go by and the coins are finally shipped and put into
the postal system on the 14th day . We received them after 18 days .
I have recently ( this weekend ) found out the individual I was dealing with
is a SENIOR employee at one of the top 2 TPGs.
Looking for some guidance and or opinions .
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United States
9542 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  9:14 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What type of guidance do you seek? What resolution would be acceptable to you?

Many employees at TPG are numismatists and collectors. The story goes whenever a coin is graded the graders do not know who the owner is. If one of the three graders actually owned the coin being graded then there would be a conflict of interest and/or ethical violation. Sounds almost like capitalism if you ask me.
ANA #R3154474
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3485 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  9:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If he really is then it's clearly bad conduct and should be reported.

If it's also that blatant then maybe the facts aren't quite as clear as you think... there are many John Does - unless the shipping address is in the area of the TPG, maybe that's it.

Also I have to ask what your motivation is? It sounds like maybe you are more upset over the rapid return and slow ship?
-----Burton
46 year / Life ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC
Owned by four cats and a wife of 35 years (joined 1983)
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Canada
3636 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  9:41 pm  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@BStrauss, very upset over the slow return more than anything .
Slow ship in the industry is really frowned upon and frankly not acceptable .
In fact between dealers it is unethical .
It is quite obvious what happened between the return
label being generated and the actually shipping of the coins.
The monetary loss is only about 40 bucks due to PayPal
not returning fees any more .
Also the individual is not just one of the graders .
Really just looking for opinions and thoughts.
I really do appreciate yours, thank you and Happy Thanksgiving!

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 Posted 11/23/2020  9:45 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Will preface this topic buying saying , I am pretty sure that individuals employed by PCGS and NGC are not allowed , as a condition of employment , to buy and sell coins on their own accord.


This is a very common misconception. The only restriction they have is buying and selling commercially. Ergo, if I'm a senior employee or grader and happen to see a coin I need for my collection I need nobody's authorization to buy it. This comes straight from both PCGS and NGC.

As BH said the grader doesn't know who owns what coins, and assuming this person is a grader maybe he saw something with the coins he didn't like, it is his job to know this after all.

The only conflict of interest I could see arising, and have no documented evidence of happening, is a grader purposefully undergrading a coin and then buying it later for profit. However, this theoretical scenario is impossible by design. Firstly, in order for a coin to be assigned a grade two graders in two separate rooms have to both see and agree on the grade. If they both do not assign the same grade it goes to a third grader. In order for this type of fraud as theorized to occur, somehow two graders would both have to know that a specific coin is going to be assigned to them, then somehow conspire to undergrade it. This is again impossible by design as graders don't know what they are going to grade with the exception of certain types of specialists or junior graders (whom almost exclusively deal with modern proofs and bullion coins). Let's say somehow that 2 graders somehow successfully conspire to undergrade that coin, before it is shipped out the coin now holdered is sent to another grader, the head grader, to QC the coin and make sure the grade is accurate. So basically it's impossible for them to really do anything nefarious by design.

Also, no offense intended, but I agree with BStrauss in that it seems you are more upset about the instant return than who had the coin. Moreover, why is who had it relevant? Rather, in order for you to even know that this person was a grader you would have had to look in to them to figure out who they were, which, if I'm being honest, is kinda red flagish on its own.
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/236574/
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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United States
2111 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  9:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nfine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Contact the TPG and alert them to your concern without revealing the ID of person.
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3485 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  9:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
.... but if he's doing it to you, he's doing it to others and that calls the entire trust structure of the industry into question.

IF it were me, I'd drop the dime, but I'm not a nice person.
-----Burton
46 year / Life ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC
Owned by four cats and a wife of 35 years (joined 1983)
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Canada
3636 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  10:38 pm  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ grapecollects, if I am correct you work for a coin dealer .Therefore you know how small the Coin World is.
This literally fell into my lap as who the individual is . I certainly was not Internet trolling to find out .
That in itself is rather unethical , and I am certainly a most respected and regarded Coin dealer
in Canada for the last43 years and do not have to troll to get info .
When you are as old as I am Telephones , publications and word of
mouth are how us old codgers operate .
Also as stated as a dealer yourself , slow ship is not humorous!
Edited by Pacificoin
11/23/2020 10:41 pm
Valued Member
Poland
290 Posts
 Posted 11/24/2020  03:06 am  Show Profile   Check norantyki's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add norantyki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Although as a professional dealer I share your ire re the slow shipping, and it does seem a bit odd, I have to say that I am not seeing much in the way of wrongdoing that actually has any bearing on this person's job / working for a TPG. There is no evidence here, only blanks that you have left for people to fill in in the same way that you have.

There are no restrictions on employees of TPGs buying / owning coins, and that is all that you can demonstrate that this individual has done - if you could produce an ebay listing / auction consignment of the same coin in the time that they had it, that would be a different story. For all you know though, he got it, didn't like it for whatever reason, and then it sat on his desk for a bit buried under some paperwork until he noticed 'oh darn, completely forgot about that' before actually posting it. As for the insinuation that he had it graded, well, I don't think that there are any restrictions on employees of TPGs submitting coins, largely because as per above the process is designed to prevent conflict of interest / fraud.

This is not to say that the TPGs are above reproach - there is strong evidence of collusion with commercial interests, but this tends to be at much higher levels than the individual, and on a market scale rather than an individual one. As you have no actual proof, only assumptions and a gut feeling, I would say eat the $40, bury this and move on. Don't forget this incident, as if a pattern of behaviour emerges, that might be a bit suspect, but bank it, and leave this guy / gal alone before you cross a line into defamation by reporting / naming them.
Dealer, collector - Coins, Banknotes, Watches, Stamps, Antiquities - Norantyki.com
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United States
334 Posts
 Posted 11/24/2020  06:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Believe7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We all want to entrust our valuable coins to these companies, but there's always going to be a scoundrel out there to mess things up.
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9542 Posts
 Posted 11/24/2020  07:40 am  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
We all want to entrust our valuable coins to these companies, but there's always going to be a scoundrel out there to mess things up.


Usually there is.

David Hall of PCGS ran his own, well advertised, coin business on the side for his entire career.
ANA #R3154474
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United States
334 Posts
 Posted 11/24/2020  6:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Believe7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@BH1964...Why am I not surprised...there you go.
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 Posted 11/24/2020  8:04 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Why am I not surprised...there you go.


He was also the founder and CEO of PCGS, and a dealer long before starting PCGS... that is worth mentioning.
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/236574/
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
Pillar of the Community
United States
1488 Posts
 Posted 11/24/2020  8:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jmkendall to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can see a possible scenario.

A senoir officer/owner of a TPG trawls ebay looking for coins he thinks might grade significantly higher than the apparent grade/asking price would indicate. He buys it, but upon recieving it, he finds it was graded fairly and there is no profit to be made so he immmediately returns it...then puts in his mailing system where it languishes in limbo.

Basically he is playing the game at you, the dealers expense. IF he can make money then he is a winner. If he can't then he gets his money back, ebay makes money and you, the dealer, are out money. Meanwhile your coin is taking forever to be returned. Time it could have spent back on a listing making you money.

So, yes, in that scenario, the behaviour is unethical.

My business partner was a TPG grader and the stories he tells are very enlightening. I'm definitly not saying the following story is true but....he said that although you did not know whose coins you were grading, you did know that coins available for grading on a certian day and time, were to be treated a bit more loosely...
Edited by jmkendall
11/24/2020 8:20 pm
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 Posted 11/24/2020  9:20 pm  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I wish to thank all for their comments and insights both on and off
of the Forum! They are all appreciated . Most enlightening some of the
Things I have learned .
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