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Mexico 8 Reales Carolus IIII, 1802/1802 Ft, Mintmark W/Heavy Die Polish

 
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 Posted 11/30/2020  11:56 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add numsrs to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Is the 8 Reales of Mexico illustrated below a known variety? In addition, the coin's mintmark pictured below appears to exhibit strong die polish...maybe with the use of a wire brush for the purpose of eliminating evidence of re-punching.











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 Posted 12/01/2020  08:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks like there is something going on with the D in IND as well.

One of CCF's experts on these types will see your post and give an answer.
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 Posted 12/01/2020  09:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numsrs to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks tdziemia...sharp eyes...it appears at first look that there may be some re-punching or re-engraving. In this instance, it is a dark line of toning...see enlarged image below. Trust a specialist in CCF may help.
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 Posted 12/01/2020  3:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Could you please post photos of the entire edge design (showing enough of the face to align the different segments)?
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain
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 Posted 12/01/2020  5:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numsrs to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Trust these images are OK.






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 Posted 12/01/2020  5:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Blind Squirrel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some of the best photography I've seen in a while.
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 Posted 12/02/2020  8:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
numsrs Since each die was punched individually - die varieties are rarely considered unless the repunching is very significant. Most simple repunching of letters or numbers with the same letter or number is common and adds no value at all. At times a very wide repunching can become collectable but the premium is usually very small to none.

From the pictures of the edge, I would suggest two tests to confirm that the coin is genuine. First specific gravity. The SG of a genuine 8R is 10.31. Any deviation over 0.01 is potentially a grounds for concern.

The second test will be far more definitive. Find a large coin dealer, jeweler or dealer in metals (even a good junkyard) and see if they will do an XRF test of the coin. The XRF is non-destructive and can be used to detect a trace of gold. All Mexican coins struck during the colonial period in Mexico City will show a significant trace contamination with gold. The state of the art at that time prevented the removal of all traces of gold from silver that was recovered using the Patio Process (mercury amalgamation). No amount of cupellation will reduce the gold to result in 99.99 pure silver. So if the XRF reading shows no gold present (0.00% gold - two decimals) you have a made for China silver restrike.

Based on visual clues from the edge, I say your chances exceed 50-50 that the coin is NOT genuine. The period of likely manufacture is somewhere between 1870 and 1930. If could be newer however, there is only a small chance it is genuine and was struck in 1802.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 12/03/2020  12:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numsrs to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Bob. I am sure you are correct. Others are sure to be enlightened.

Give my best to John Lorenzo. Trust he is well. We weren't close, but we did share an interest in US Colonial coins. I believe I met John at a Cherry Hill, NJ Coin convention many years ago. Mike Ringo, Garry FitzGerald and Bill Anton were still alive.
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 Posted 12/03/2020  10:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
numsrs I will let John know the next time I run into him. I have not been traveling since my heart problems were first diagnosed. I only met John on a few occasions. We worked on the book at distance. He did XRF testing and I wrote the text based on an outline that merged his notes and stuff from Ringo.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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