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Suspected Genuine 8 Reales

 
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 Posted 01/16/2022  5:32 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add jimmybob96 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Back again with some more 8 real content. This time I'm presenting a coin I am quite confident is genuine, I just want to verify it is not a type 2 CC. Basic coin specifications are below:

1807 Charles IV Mexico 8 Reales TH assayer
Weight: 26.71g
Double edge overlap: Present, quite hard to see due to some wear.

From what I've read, there do exist type 2 CC's that range in the 26.7 gram area. I have learned that a general rule of thumb for weight loss is no more than 1/4 of a gram under original specification (which I believe minimum is ~26.86 grams), according to a previous forum post swamperbob commented on. A few of the circles here and there are kind of cube shaped, but only in a few instances on the edge. The castle details on the reverse looked fine to me, and the kings dimple is present on the portrait.

If anybody thinks there is something wrong with this coin I'd love to hear outside opinions. I could only get one good picture of the first overlap, the second one is in a dark smudged area that is hard to photograph, but I can tell it's present.



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 Posted 01/19/2022  12:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What swamperbob called Type 2 CCs, I like to call "bullion forgeries" because they were made to trade as bullion coins.

One way to tell a very accurate looking bullion forgery from a genuine issue would be specific gravity and even some were very close to correct SG.

As this shows a Mexico City mintmark, the ultimate test would be XRF to detect a trace of gold contamination -- probably not worth the effort for an already damaged example but I believe it is possible for some hand-held XRF devices to detect 0.1% gold in the alloy. if you can get a free test from a coin shop or jewelry store you could be assured it was genuine if trace gold were detected but could not rule out genuine if none were detected due to the limited accuracy of the test.
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 Posted 01/19/2022  6:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimmybob96 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Jgenn - I've seen that as a useful deduction step to determine authenticity. As for being able to do SG, I've tried before, but it requires a really accurate scale to like 4 decimal places, which I don't have.

I reckon without doing the further steps you outlined, it can't be ruled out as being completely genuine without any doubt. The point of my post was more so to see if anyone had experiences with contemporary counterfeits that were in the same weight class, and the details and dimensions matched with genuine pieces. Some Type 2 CC's I've seen on this forum that were in the same weight range usually also had detail issues, like the castles on the reverse not looking correct, and the king's portrait missing the dimple.

Another interesting thing I learned is that the portrait reales were designed for stacking, and the portrait side is slightly convex, with the reverse being slightly concave. Assuming your 8 reales isn't too worn, you should be able to put the coin portrait side down on a hard surface and the coin should be able to spin in place when pushing on the rim. I tried this one of my genuine 8 reales and it worked, it also worked on this 1807 8 reales. Something I would like to know is if the contemporary counterfeits were also able to copy this design feature?

Summed up, I posted this to see if based on details and weight alone if others thought nothing looked like a point of concern.
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 Posted 01/19/2022  11:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you have good calipers you can try the dry method, as described by swamperbob, to calculate SG.

Visually, my main concern is the lack of dentils clearly extending to the edge. Of course, there is extensive wear which may have removed those details but it makes it hard to determine if the edge was applied before or after the strike.

Finally, I doubt if any dealer would question the authenticity of your coin, even though it could be a type 2 CC.
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 Posted 01/20/2022  10:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not a modern fake... Either genuine original or one of Bob's "Class II" illicit restrikes.
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 Posted 01/29/2022  9:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree a silver counterfeit - a contemporary copy made for the China trade.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 01/30/2022  4:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimmybob96 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry for taking so long. So yeah this appears to be some kind of counterfeit. I tried the dry method and kept getting readings in the 9 area, so I'm guessing this is made of debased silver or some other material. swamperbob - I'm curious if there was anything that tipped you off before I reported back on the dry reading? I would love to know to help me in the future, many thanks!

I will be keeping this example, I find it interesting that it's a Class II and paid in the 50 dollar range, so I'm happy with the purchase. Besides that, these Class II's are extremely convincing pieces when trying to rely on details alone from my standpoint.
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 Posted 01/30/2022  7:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Something is off here. An SG of 9 is correct for base metal copies but not for a Class 2 type which is actually made of silver above 800 fine. UK used 850 fine and US 900 fine. A base metal copy would fall into Class 3 in all probability. The transfer method used to make the coin simply is not a pre-1850 methodology.

The serious issues here are the wobble in the edge design (Mexico City used an edger with a recessed die to preclude wobble) and the suspicious rim - almost looks like there was a collar line there which was not fully removed.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 01/30/2022  11:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimmybob96 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Disregard my last post, I tried this on my Morgans and I'm getting similar results. I know I buy a lot of counterfeit reales but I know my Morgans are genuine. Something is going wrong in my calculations so until I can get a good SG result I wouldn't say anything definitive.

I know some genuine reales sometimes have a little wobble in the pattern, but was completely unaware Mexico City had a compensating control.
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 Posted 01/31/2022  9:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In the case of Mexico City, I was told by Clyde Hubbard that he had actually been given entry into the Mexican mint storage area that contained old minting machines. Specifically, my question addressed the dies used in the edging mill. You see European edge mills and dies can be viewed on line and I was wondering if Mexico City had adopted the recessed edge die used in Europe or not. What he said confirmed my theory about wobble.

This is how the edge is applied.



Here are two possibilites - top is controlled allowing no wobble - bottom has nothing to retain the blank and allows wobble and potentially ejection.



Here is a photo of an edger from a European Museum which pre-dates the Spanish (Mexico City) edgers.



Here are the dies used in that apparatus which show the pattern for the edge is found in a groove made in the die face.



Clyde Hubbard basically confirmed that this arrangement was in use at Mexico City. If other mints did it differently, I have no actual proof of that.

I do know that forgers (counterfeiters) making copies of 8 Reales in the USA at times DID NOT use this method of controlling wobble.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 01/31/2022  9:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the basic question is:
Quote:
How Much Wobble do we allow for before looking at the coin as a counterfeit or forgery?


For myself, I will test every 8R from Mexico City which shows wobble to see if passes or fails other rather easy tests.

Weight
Magnetism
Specific Gravity
XRF test for gold trace

I do not use the same criteria for War Time issues that were produced at times of severe stress on production. These War Time coins have wider ranges of tolerance because corners were cut. However, in periods of stability I would expect that tolerances were far higher, and wobble is virtually missing on genuine coins.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 02/02/2022  5:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimmybob96 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those photos are very educational and telling, thank you. What's interesting about the rim on this piece is that there is a segment of wobble that makes no sense to me, it just abruptly goes from being straight to completely off-center before hitting the overlap. I took a photo with flash on to help accentuate the detail through whatever gunk is on it. In the photo, I tried to bracket the area where it just suddenly drops before terminating back to the normal pattern. It almost look as if somebody did a touch up job or something, most wobbled patterns gradually drift off course.

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 Posted 02/02/2022  9:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It almost look as if somebody did a touch up job or something


I believe you have your answer.

A small segment of edge that stands out like you explain is very clear proof that the edge was not applied in a "standard" edge mill.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 02/03/2022  3:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimmybob96 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Right, funny how many times and how long I have to look at something to finally get the picture. It's amazing how extensively these were counterfeited, and faked/forged to this day. Been quite unlucky with the 8 real pickups, but as far as I know I haven't had issues with counterfeits with a coin series like the French ecu... yet.
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 Posted 02/03/2022  9:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The French Ecu was not as heavily counterfeited as was the 8 reales. The 8R of colonial Spain represented a large percentage of new silver appearing on the world market every year for literally centuries. It was therefore targeted by numerous counterfeiters including several governments.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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