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Roman - Vitellius (69) Denarius Opinions Please

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 704Next Topic  
New Member

United States
19 Posts
 Posted 11/28/2022  4:30 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Wade16 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
This coin is 3.1 grams and about 17mm size. It has an edge lamination that has caused part of the right front of the coin to fall off as shown. I would like to know if it is genuine and if so, how much does the lamination affect any value please.



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United States
4705 Posts
 Posted 11/29/2022  5:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

I'd venture that it's unlikely to be a modern copy. A quick x-ray fluorescence (xrf) scan ought to settle the matter definitively. I think the "error" of a defective flan makes it more interesting than a normal specimen, but how that affects value one way or another may well be in the eye of the beholder.

It appears to conform to the description of RIC 86.

Colligo ergo sum
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United States
19 Posts
 Posted 11/29/2022  8:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade16 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree it is interesting. Thank you for your help.
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United States
1162 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2022  06:08 am  Show Profile   Check louisvillekyshop's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add louisvillekyshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Please also forgive the fact a lot of us are not responding, this was just a really hard question to go on record with. That said, this is a rare emperor to have and a coin like that can't just have come into existence from some find recently. So there has to be a pedigree of owners in my opinion. Care to share the history of this coin? I would imagine it has been in collections for centuries as looking at your photos I don't see encrustation in the letters from burial. If I had the coin that would be how I'd feel good about it, and if it had none and just appeared on the market in that condition with those letters I would worry about it. Had it been Trajan I would not, but this emperor, someone has to have had that coin and I can't find it photographed in history in a simple search of auctions for example. So as for affecting value, with a pedigree it is worth quite a bit, but without it a person would worry.
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United States
788 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2022  06:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not an expert, just a collector. But...

1. Could be a modern fake.
2. Could be genuine ancient denarius struck with bad metal.
3. Could be an ancient plated fake called a fourree.

Counterfeits have been made since coins were invented, about 6th-5th cent. BC.

You could send this Vitellius to authenticate, to David Sear for example. If you sent it to NGC, they'd give their opinion. If they believe it's a modern fake, I don't think they'd slab it but you'd still pay the fee for them looking at it.

I have two ancient fourree, an Athens new style tetradrachm and a Domitian denarius. The plating on the Athens coin can be seen on the edge. Like some modern fakes, the inside is a cheaper base metal, the outside plated with silver. The Vitellius could be a fourree. Most official Roman silver did not have lamination problems like this that I know of. Fourree are not worth as much as genuine coins but they do sell at auctions.


Edited by livingwater
11/30/2022 07:22 am
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
20605 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2022  07:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All denarii of Vitellius are very scarce and quite valuable in modern numismatics.
Due to this, there is a strong temptation to produce high quality fake coins in modern times.

I have reviewed quite of lot of images on Wildwinds - Vitellius to get a good average idea of what the Emperor should look like on genuine examples. Stylistically, it is quite plausible. Weight given is OK.

Due to the fact that denarii of Vitellius would have also been scarce in a contemporary sense, it would have been very easy to get the style wrong due the great possibility of unfamiliarity. Ancient fakers would have been more concerned with the general appearance, and not so much the the particular style of the Vitellius portrait.

Given that info, the opinion that I have formed is that
it is most probably a modern plated fake, but not of very recent manufacture. Reason that it is not a new coin is that a laminate of corrosion over time has been enough to spall some of the plating off.

However, I cannot completely dismiss the possibility that it is a contemporary fouree. As livingwater's example illustrates, contemporary fourees are also capable of displaying plating failures.
XRF should confirm a baser metal core

The comments of louisvillekyshop are also very relevant.



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United States
19 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2022  1:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade16 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all Gents. The coin came from a storage locker buyer that sells items at a local flea market. I found it along with 2 other coins that I have posted on this forum. They may have been part of a larger collection, and the seller thought they did not have much value. The other coin is a Cappadocia, Caesarea. Domitian. 81-96. AR Didrachm that members felt was genuine. I guess I might have to send it off for verification as suggested. I really appreciate all the information. Your knowledge is a great help.
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United States
19 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2022  01:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade16 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Would it be cost effective to spend $60 or more to have this coin authenticated? Does this coin have a high enough value to justify the expense?
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 Posted 12/01/2022  07:07 am  Show Profile   Check louisvillekyshop's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add louisvillekyshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That might be a zero sum gain but it could be worth it. I say that because below is a much poorer example for wear but NGC slabbed and a complete coin so not that damage yours has. And this is a friend of ours and he did a pure auction from low to determine the value so he did as good as a person could with such a coin in an open auction slabbed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3850856347...9SR-ygxtiZYQ

A complete coin in VF to VF+ condition is suspect enough because of who the emperor is that slabing one of those and selling as NGC encased is well worth it as buyers would really want to get a coin like that so in that case you would be smart to encase it. So yours is interesting. If you just listed it non NGC or Sear it is also not like NGC won't end up looking if over. For $5 NGC offers eBay members an "opinion" of a live listing and if two people contact NGC about a listing like that and NGC says something favorable to them (which of course you will never hear or anyone else) then the coin might get the highest value. But if you don't have a good track record selling coins you can't list that on eBay and expect people to trust the listing. I am talking about if the guy from above, a well established dealer, listing it non NGC etc. Do you not want the coin? If you collect Romans it is kind of a must have you won't get again easily so think about that.
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
20605 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2022  07:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If further opinion is is desired, take it to a coin dealer who is very familiar with ancients. In hand examination can then be done.
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United Kingdom
1930 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2022  07:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have never seen an edge seam that looks like that on a genuine struck ancient.
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 Posted 12/01/2022  08:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bob L to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting conversation here.

Just to rule out one unlikely possibility: the reverse photo is just slightly out of focus. I'm trying to make sense of those tiny indentations in the center of the cauldron of the tripod lebes. I assume that, at that tiny scale, they must be dings/dents (and not stamped lettering). Please confirm.
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United States
19 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2022  1:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade16 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The markings look like 6 tiny squares going into the surface in 2 strait rows with 2 above, and 4 below. I appreciate all of the members comments and advice. I would say I have accumulated several ancient coins over the years, but I don't actively collect them. I just like the history connected with them.
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United States
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 Posted 12/01/2022  9:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I found two plated Vitellius denarii online, one from NGC coins auctions, the other from Heritage Auctions, but different reverses.

I did not see a modern fake plated Vitellius on Forgery Network site or on Forum Dr. Prokopov's fake coin reports.

As sel_691 said this may be a fake made after the Roman Empire, maybe a hundred years ago, I don't know.

Edited by livingwater
12/01/2022 9:57 pm
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United Kingdom
1930 Posts
 Posted 12/02/2022  05:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
BoBL. Those marks are exactly where the circular top of the tripod should be. They should be standing proud but very often worn flat. I cannot imagine a scenario on a struck, solid silver cion where they would be indentations.

/* THESE ARE NOT MY COINS */

Example of tripod ring intact:-



Example of tripod ring removed:-

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