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Replies: 13 / Views: 1,895 |
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Valued Member
United States
143 Posts |
I need some opinions from you guys.
We all know Austria, China, Kenya, and etc. are all unique countries.
We also all know that regions like Reunion, New Caledonia, Ascension Island, and etc. are not independent countries but territories/dependencies/overseas departments/etc of their respective mother countries.
The issue I'm having is with micronations. Places like Seborga, Hutt River Province, and Sealand are definitely micronations. But other places like the Galapagos Islands, Easter Islands, Nicobar Islands, and stuff have mother countries but also have unofficial coins.
What is a consistent criterion for differentiating between a micronation and unofficial coin releases of regions?
I've looked at lots of websites and there is so much disparity.
For example, the Republic of Cabinda has unofficial coins. Is it a micronation, or is it how Katanga was?
Does my question make sense?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
539 Posts |
Stan I think the reason you see lots of disparity is because there is no single right answer to your question. It really boils down to what you want to collect. I'm a OFEC (one from every country) collector. I use as my 'boundaries' the Krause 1901-2000 World Catalog. If they have it as a distinct coin issuing entity, I am attempting to collect something from it. You won't find these 'micronations' in that catalog. However, if you use the NGC web site or Krause's Unusual Coin Catalog you find many of them. I've set my collecting interests (thus far) but many collect these unofficial coins and love them. It really is up to the individual collector and what they want to spend their time and money on!
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Rest in Peace
 United States
1380 Posts |
I'm a three-from-each-country collector and my informal criteria is to collect it if it was intended to circulate. All these places that have coins issued just to sell to hobbyists, like Pitcairn Is., Gough Is., fancy shaped Somali (I mean, come on, there isn't any government there to issue coins!) I ignore. On the other hand, Katanga was a real attempt to be a country and the coins were used. I have the original issue from Isle of Lundy, again because the coins were intended to actually be used, even though there was no real country per se. I'm undecided on Hutt River, if I go with it it will have to be the first coins, not any of the later only to make a buck coins.
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Moderator
 Australia
16804 Posts |
Quote: What is a consistent criterion for differentiating between a micronation and unofficial coin releases of regions? A "micronation" is a country that lacks diplomatic recognition from other countries; most importantly, it lacks diplomatic recognition from the country whose territory it claims (for example, Australia in the case of Hutt River Province). "Unofficial coinage" is coinage issued without the authority of the country or territory named on the coinage; either a mint somewhere has struck coinage when such country or territory has never been granted or granted itself the right to issue such coinage (as in the case of Galapagos Islands, Easter Island and Nauru coinage), or when a rebel group, government-in-exile, alternative government or other unrecognised faction has granted such authority (as is the case of a great deal of Somalia and Liberia coinage). Curiously, a micronation can have both "official" and "unofficial" coinages. I own two Hutt River Province coins; one was "official", issued by Prince Leonard and the "legitimate" HRP government in Western Australia; the other was "unofficial", issued by Prince Kevin, a conman who had gained the trust of Prince Leonard and went to America, where he mass-produced HRP merchandise and pocketed the money himself. Quote: For example, the Republic of Cabinda has unofficial coins. Is it a micronation, or is it how Katanga was? I'd class it as "unofficial". There are Cabindan secessionist groups, but none are particularly active right now, and they all hate each other as much as they hate the central government. The rebel faction in Cabinda in whose name the coins were made has issued statements denouncing the coinage of Cabinda as Chinese-made fakery. I'm assuming they were made by a less-than-scrupulous mint aiming their products at OFEC collectors. The coins of "Kurdistan" are in the similarly vague "unofficial" category; in this case, while there are Kurdish separatist movements in both Iraq and Turkey, the coins were made in America and commissioned by an American citizen of Kurdish descent, with no connections to any rebel movements back home. I would class Katanga differently, as a "breakaway state" - in the same category as Biafra, Transnistria, Western Sahara and Abkhazia. While it never received formal diplomatic recognition from anywhere, it was backed by Belgian military and business interests. Breakaway states are distinct from micronations primarily by their scale - breakaway states have large territories, large populations that recognize the breakaway state as "their" government (either happily or unhappily) and the resources to procure a standing army powerful enough to enforce a de facto recognition of separateness, even if such recognition is never formally made. As implied by the "micro" in their name, micronations usually have none of these things. Any "rebellion" of the micronation could be crushed Waco-style by the host country at any time with minimal effort, and the micronation knows this - so they don't make waves, instead attempting to formally gain recognition from the host country through peaceful diplomacy and/or legal wrangling. Quote: I'm undecided on Hutt River, if I go with it it will have to be the first coins, not any of the later only to make a buck coins. None of the Hutt River coins were intended to circulate. The population's simply too small (a couple dozen people, most of whom are related to each other) to support a supply of circulating coinage. "Circulating currency" in Hutt River has always been banknotes only, and even those aren't really intended to be spent by the tourists that buy them. I have a set of notes, bought for me by friends of the family who actually visited there (and were singularly unimpressed by the place).
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Rest in Peace
 United States
1380 Posts |
That's kind of what I thought with regards to Hutt River, that none were really intended to circulate, hence my having left them out up to now. Regarding Katanga and Isle of Lundy, they mess up my 3 from each goal because each only ever issued 2 coins (I'm not counting the 70's Lundy restrikes as legitimate). Are there any other countries with intended to circulate coinage where only two coins were ever issued, and is there anybody with only one coin?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5953 Posts |
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Moderator
 Australia
16804 Posts |
Quote: Are there any other countries with intended to circulate coinage where only two coins were ever issued, and is there anybody with only one coin? Some examples I can think of: - St Pierre & Miquelon (French territory south of Newfoundland) 1 and 2 francs, 1948 only. - Basque Republic (also known as Euzkadi, classifiable as "breakaway region", though usually filed under "Spanish civil war" in the catalogues) - 1 and 2 pesetas 1937 only. - Turks & Caicos Islands - quarter-crown and half-crown coins isued for circulation 1981 only. I'm not entirely sure about the halves, but I have seen quarters (on par with US quarters) very heavily circulated in world coin scratchtrays, so I know they're not just tour-boat souvenirs. - The four member-states of the Central African currency union that have only ever existed as part of the union - they issue a euro-style common currency, with separate national sides only on two denominations and only between 1970 and 1992: - - Central African Republic, 100 francs only. There's also a 100 franc coin in the name of the "Central African Empire", officially withdrawn before release. - - Chad, 100 franc and 500 francs only. - - Congo-Brazzaville, 100 and 500 francs only. - - Gabon, 100 and 500 francs only. - The Confederate States of America, another breakaway region, only issued 1 cent and 50 cent coins, neither of which had high mintages and are usually classified as "patterns". - Kiau Chau, the German Empire exclave in northern China, 5 and 10 cents 1909 only. - If government-and-name-changes count, the Khmer Republic only issued one 1 riel coin (1970) before Pol Pot took over and abolished money entirely. Vietnamese-occupied Kampuchea likewise only had one coin type, a 5 sen 1979. - The Japanese-occupied Meng Chiang territory only issued one coin type (5 chiao 1938), while the Japanese puppet "Reformed Government" in central China only issued two coins (1 and 10 fen 1940). - You could probably find several candidates amongst the smaller, more ephemeral German and Italian states. Like Schonau, which only issued one coin type (4 heller 1755). - The colonial government of Virginia only issued one coin, the 1773 halfpenny. - There are only two coins issued in the names of the colonial governments of New South Wales (15 pence and 5 shillings 1813) and South Australia (1 pound and 5 pounds 1852), though they're all a bit pricey. 
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
Hutt River Province is about 30 people and a messa sheep in Australia. They're a country in name only, tolerated by oz only because they bring curious tourists who have to stay at oz hotels, since HRP has none. Oz makes more than they lose in taxes from HRP citizens.
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Rest in Peace
 United States
1380 Posts |
Sap, thanks for that fantastic review! I do have a few of those you mentioned, so I can mark another two countries complete!
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Valued Member
 United States
143 Posts |
Thanks for the input guys, especially your detailed answer Sap.
So, Sap, what would you say is a list of breakaway regions that have issued coins/have had coins issued in their name over the years: Biafra Katanga Tranistria Abkhazdia Saharawi
What else? Palestine? Darfur?
I'm trying to establish some kind of system that will be consistent, but in between micronations, unofficial coins, breakaways, etc, I can't find anything.
Maybe it would just be simpler to have everything that's not independent stored with the country whom they claim some connection to? Then again, this creates the whole problem with micronations, as I wish to exclude them from collecting but can't do so if I can't consistently classify them...
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
I seem to recall some Biafra paper money.
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Moderator
 Australia
16804 Posts |
Quote: Sap, what would you say is a list of breakaway regions that have issued coins/have had coins issued in their name over the years: Biafra Katanga Tranistria Abkhazdia Saharawi I assume your list is aimed primarily at rebel areas that were ultimately re-assimilated, not rebel areas (like Bangladesh, the Baltic states and former Yugoslav states) that ultimately went on to become recognised independent nations. Abkhazia has issued NCLT coinage but no circulation coinage yet. The Palestine and Darfur coinages are both unofficial, like the Kurdistan coinage, struck overseas for fundraiser/awareness purposes. The Western Sahara coinage I'm still uncertain of; from what I've read of them, they're with Abkhazia, somewhere in between. They were never issued for circulation in Polisario-controlled territory, but they were issued by the Polisario regime. Quote: I'm trying to establish some kind of system that will be consistent, but in between micronations, unofficial coins, breakaways, etc, I can't find anything. If you want to distinguish them and your finding the "Is it in Krause?" question unhelpful, consider a system like jgfindring's: if they circulated, or they didn't circulate but the same government that issued them also issued circulating coinage, then they were "real coins". If none of them ever actually appeared on the streets or in the banks within the territory named on them, they don't count. On that basis, the following coinages of unrecognised breakaway states would "count": Abkhazia - no Anguilla - no Biafra - yes Cabinda - no Darfur - no Katanga - yes Kurdistan - no Lundy - yes Palestine - no Somaliland - yes Transnistria - yes Western Sahara - no ZAR (Boer Republic of South Africa) - yes
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2605 Posts |
Quote: If you want to distinguish them and your finding the "Is it in Krause?" question unhelpful ... If we base classification of coins on whether or not they circulated (or were intended to), then more than a half of Krause is filled with not "real coins".
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
1238 Posts |
Very true. However, those "non-real" coins in Krause catalogs are usually issued by "regular", recognized countries. As for Palestine, the pieces issued (by the British currency board) until 1947 are normal coins of course, but anything that appeared with later dates is bogus. (Side note: The Palestine Monetary Authority, which may later become a central bank, even has one of the pre-1947 coins on the home page http://www.pma.ps of its website ...) Christian
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Replies: 13 / Views: 1,895 |
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