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Why The Lack Of 5th Century Roman Coins?

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Author Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 2,414Next Topic  
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VisigothKing's Avatar
United States
4778 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2011  02:23 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add VisigothKing to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
After Honorius, Arcadius, there seems to be a general lack of Roman coins (from all the coins I've seen on sale). Was it because of the mint cities being taken over by the Germanic tribes? I understand that being the cause for the scarcity of Western Roman coinage, but that wouldn't exactly explain the lack of Eastern coinage (seems to me a little easier to find than Western coinage, but still not a lot of them). Maybe due to economic problems? I'd like to know your thoughts on the matter, thanks.

Also, does anyone happen to own Roman coins of this time period (to clarify, around 420s-ish to the fall of the WRE in 476)? Or does anyone own coins of the Germanic kingdoms that replaced the WRE? I'd like to see them if you don't mind. Thanks!
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giano's Avatar
279 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2011  05:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add giano to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi jangofett,I have this one:
Late Roman Empire. The Vandals. Anonymous Vandalic imitation, V-VI century AD. Nummus, Æ o.68 g. Diademed and draped bust r( maybe Valentinian III). Rev. Victory advancing l., holding wreath and palm branch.
As you can see it's very very small,in the pic it's on my forefinger!
You're right after flavius honorius it's very difficult find coins from the late wester roman empire but not impossible.this is the littlest coin I have,as you can see it's a barbaric imitation because there isn't a real legenda around but only some vertical lines sign that the engraver of the die was illiterate.
here the links with my coin:
http://postimage.org/image/bmsfdge6v/

http://postimage.org/image/bgjbo3ufr/
Edited by giano
11/05/2011 05:32 am
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ancientcoinguy's Avatar
United States
842 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2011  05:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ancientcoinguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it is a combination of many things. Bad economic times, scarcer resources with the losses of Western cities, and extremely poor quality seem like worthy candidates to answer your question. To clarify poor quality: We know that Roman coinage declined both in quality (design and value) and metal content over the centuries where they continued to be watered down, if you know what I mean. The lesser-quality metal would have degraded more rapidly than the higher-quality metals used previously. I have hardly [i]ever[/] seen "premium high-grade" late Roman bronze coins, so this seems to validate the previous point.

The best thing I can compare it to is Zincoln cents. Regular copper Lincolns can still be found with dates from the late 50's and 60's in our everyday change. They still look great even for their age! However, Zincolns degrade at an incredible speed. It is a lot harder to find a nice example of, say, a 10 year old coin than it is a 50 year old coin. Make sense?
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Caesar381's Avatar
Serbia (Srbija)
146 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2011  05:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Caesar381 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I like vandalic imitations...nice :)
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2011  05:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think there must have been some sort of Roman World financial crisis. The Roman economy was a military economy, and when the Empire collapsed, so did trading.

Two centuries later, and Western Europe was in the Dark Ages, and coins from this period are very scarce or rare, because so little long distance trading was carried on. Charlemagne was the only reasonably bright light in a very dim period.

I have only one coin from this period: a bronze sceat of Eanred, of England, and a very diminutive coin it is too! I will try to collect ANY coin of this period.

I think long range trading and commerce must have been in significant decline, but also the agricultural part of the economy must have suffered less. The lack of coins seems to be the main real evidence that is still available to us. Coins were the 'oil' of the economy, such as existed at that time.

Today, we use electronic credit instead.

One shudders to think what will happen if and when electronic credit fails.
Edited by sel_69l
11/05/2011 05:41 am
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16871 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2011  09:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Honorius is my last "Roman" emperor, chronologically. I have one "civic copper" follis from Ostrogothic Rome, circa 500 AD:

Why-The-Lack-Of-5th-Century-Roman-Coins?

...but apart from Byzantine coins, I don't have any other "post-Roman" coinages. I don't have any coins from anywhere in Western Europe up between this Ostrogothic one and some Northumbrian stycas of the 800s AD.

As for reasons why the lack of very late Roman coins, I think it's a combination of several factors, not just the general failure of the Imperial economy at the time.

There's also the issue of access to supply. The countries which today have fairly lax antiquities controls (eg. Britain, France, Germany, the Balkans) were all de-Romanized by then. Places where the empire was still relatively intact and prosperous (eg. Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) all have fairly tight anti-antiquities-trading laws in place today, which goes a long way towards restricting the number of coins available for sale sourced from those regions.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Bing's Avatar
United States
4253 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2011  09:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Like SAP, my last "Western" Empire coin is a Honorius AE4 from Aquileia in Italy, but I have a Theodosius II AE4 from Cyzicus and a Marcian AE4 from Constantinople. I'm inclined to think that the Western Empire fell apart rather quickly and fell into what we call the "Dark Ages" where the skills and innovations of the Romans were quickly forgotten to include coinage techniques and artistry.

JW
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bobbyhelmet's Avatar
United Kingdom
2838 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2011  10:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobbyhelmet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've just alluded to this in a different thread but thought I would post it here too. As far as the Gallic and Britannic areas go we probably do have 'later coinage' in the form of unofficial or barbaric issues. There is a very good chance some of these were minted decades or even centuries after the Romans left and were just based on the designs of earlier official issues.

I suspect a lot of the later coins also had to be used for longer and suffer more wear and be recycled also resulting in fewer surviving examples. There are no doubt a number of contributing factors resulting in the few coins we see.
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VisigothKing's Avatar
United States
4778 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2011  1:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add VisigothKing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All good points, and nice coins guys. My last "ancient" Roman is a Theodosius I AE2 from Constantinople, so I'm looking forward to getting my first Honorius or Theodosius II or any other of the cheaper later emperors. But do you agree with the high prices for the really worn down poor condition coins of this period, like those of Valentinian III for example, or of the Germanic kingdoms? Because most of the coins from this time that I've seen look basically like pebbles and are going for upwards of $30, $40 all the way to $200, $250 (the cheapest I've seen are two Valentinian III's for around $22 each).
Edited by VisigothKing
11/05/2011 1:26 pm
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giano's Avatar
279 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2011  3:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add giano to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've paid this barbarous vandalic imitative 5 euro(6.90$)at an antiques market,I think a good price.....
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