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 Replies: 13 / Views: 1,744 |
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Valued Member
United States
288 Posts |
Lets open up a forum for your favorite coin dealer ripoff stories. It is long past time to clean up this marketplace. It is way past time for federal, state, and local investigations into coin fraud. Perhaps if prompted by the marketplace, major criminal fraud, and perhaps RICO indictments will come down against the worst offenders.
I urge caution in all of your responses so as to not get yourselves sued, but if you can prove it, well, so be it. Check your comments carefully. Get your proof in order first! Do not slam an honest broker. Profit is legal. Fraud is not. Nor are political kickbacks and bribes to polititions and court officials.
If there is anyone out there with the means to provide legal counsel to the victums willing to speak out against corrupt dealers, please read all comments and let them know if you are willing to help. Post here if you wish to make public your willingness to help.
The art of numistmatics died a long time ago. It is now, and has been for the last 20+ years seemingly about greedy dealers, stupid dealer controlled numistmatic literaries, and foolish buyers believing in the big con, with a very few exceptions. Honesty and integrity in the coin business seems to be more rare then the coins themselves. What honesty and integrity?,... well, I will leave that to any commentaries willing to share their horror stories. Comments? Gusp
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1083 Posts |
Well Gusp, it is frustrating at times I must admit. I still think outright, prosecutable crime and fraud are pretty rare among the large family of established dealers. At worst, too many of them seem to be trying to foster new, looser standards of grading on the unsuspecting public, or forming their own grading companies and slabbing their own coins that are most often vastly over graded. Is this crime? I don't really know, but grading is subjective enough so as to be very difficult for a prosecutor to make a case, so long as the coins are genuine. ebay has really increased the over grading syndrome, and the best we can do I think is to continue to educate and inform. This forum and others like it do a great service in this regard and a few fraudulent sellers have been reported to ebay by readers here and removed. The best protection against getting ripped off buying a used car is to buy from a reputable dealer and to know something about cars (or take someone with you who does) before you make an offer on one. The same is true for collecting coins. |
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Valued Member
 United States
288 Posts |
Excellent reply.. True enough... education and the sharing of said is Art at its finest...Gusp
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2254 Posts |
I think I will just use the ebay discussions forum for "recommended" and "discouraged" sellers instead of attempting any kind of story, ebay or not, in which I was dissatisfied with a purchase. While I see merit in your thought of a subject, I do not think it wise to pose such a question on this forum. There are too many nice people here, and it doesn't make sense to create any kind of turmoil or potential banter. Especially any kind of accusations towards someone or company, justified or not. I am here to learn about coins, and to learn every aspect that I can from the folks here. In turn I will try to do the same for other new collectors. If I buy coins and get burned, it is because I did not learn enough. If it is a corrupt listing, I have the means to handle this myself through the proper channels, as does everyone else. Just my honest thoughts on this. Gus, do not take this personal, as I have enjoyed reading your other posts thus far. Best regards, Tighe Edited by tights24
01/22/2007 2:41 pm
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Valued Member
United States
288 Posts |
Not posted to create harm. I also enjoy the kindness and intellect generated herin. Perhaps if it turns too hot we can pull it down or move it elsewhere. I say let it run awhile. Gusp
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2254 Posts |
quote:
Not posted to create harm.
Understood Gusp, which is why I tried to word my reply politely. I'm certainly not one that avoids confrontation. lol. I know for a fact that the moderators would be up to the task of policing this one. Just questioning the need is all. I know everyone feels and has felt this pain. Cheers. |
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Rest in Peace
Australia
661 Posts |
Tights24. My thoughts are similar to yours. The last thing any friendly-family orientated forum needs is a vigilante attitude starting. Maybe the current 'sherrifs posse' isn't as savage as we would like it to be but lets keep the Forum peaceful. Put the boot in on another page if you want.
regards,
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2600 Posts |
Gusp, unfortunately, in all industries there examples of every type of business dealer; good, bad, uneducated, overly optimistic and in a few cases crooks. I think about the auto repair industry and the things I have seen pulled on uneducated owners, in many cases women like my wife. The answer is always time, education and an ounce of prevention. Now, when my darling need vehicle work, I take it in, it was my job anyway.  No matter how hard you try, one will replace the ones you get removed. It is the things you learn from a forum like this that is our best protection and I am surely glad to be here. Jim |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
830 Posts |
I know of another forum that would just love a thread like this. They thrive on cutting people to shreds. I don't think it belongs here. Just my opinion.
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Valued Member
United States
235 Posts |
Fraud is technically difficult to prove -- (1) intent to deceive, (2) misrepresentation of material FACT (not opinion such a grade of a coin, and (3)justifiable reliance on the part of the buyer. The are just three of seven or nine elements to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. The defense will be "caveat emptor." A coin-collector buyer should be educated enough in what he is buying not to be fooled, and in any case exercised a choice to buy or not to buy. And even a civil lawsuit to get your money back, based on fraud, requires a higher degree of proof than a preponderance of the evidence.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
you have to be very careful on what you say about any individual, because they can claim harm to their business and all different things so if you make a claim you better be sure you can back it up in court because that just may be where you end up.I am not standing up for anyone that has ripped anyone off I am just trying to stand up for the people that may want to throw a name out there and not have the proof they need to prove their case in court if it happens to go to that
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Valued Member
United States
235 Posts |
I agree with Bryan1315 that internet postings to the effect that a certain dealer is dishonest can generate a civil suit even without proof of actual damages, as attributing incompetency or dishonesty to one's profession or business is usually defamaton per se (meaning that damages are presumed). Inasmuch as the parties may be residents of different states, the case could be brought in federal court if damages exceed $75,000 --- and in the federal judicial system, the plaintiff gets to choose the court (which will be in his state and district, making it more inconvenient and costly for the defendant). The best course of action is negative feedback on ebay, or possibly a complaint with the Bettet Busines Bureau, or similar grievance action which then becomes privileged comunications. Posting factual information about purchases on a coin forum (such as a picture of the coin with the dealer's own description) or, in the case of an ebay auction, asking for an OPINION about the authenticity of a coin, may be the best redress. It alerts othrs to the dealer without calling him a crook. Dealers who cheat do not stay in business long if people are reluctant to buy from them. It is best to be knowledgeable about what you are buying before you buy it. If I want to make a major purchase, then I buy from well-established dealers (like Harlan Berk) or well-known auction firms. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1203 Posts |
The problem is simple, very simple! Education = light! Let a little light on the subject and it simply fades away into the dark. The problem is taken care of!  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1454 Posts |
A very touchy subject. I believe several people have stated getting educated about the situation to prevent getting ripped off. I have plenty of ebay horror stories but that past can't be fixed. Only I can prevent it from happening again in the future by not doing the same thing twice. |
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Replies: 13 / Views: 1,744 |
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Posted 01/22/2007 2:27 pm
