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Replies: 12 / Views: 3,346 |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
Can someone please explain Paper silver to me? 1. If I buy 100oz of paper silver does that mean I can get 100oz of physical silver from the seller at anytime? 2. Does it mean I have just bought an option on 100oz of silver that I will never see, or worse 100oz of silver that never existed. 3. Do the sellers actually have the physical silver on hand to back up the paper sale? 4. Am I an idiot for even contemplating the idea of buying Paper Silver?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4944 Posts |
Quote: 1. If I buy 100oz of paper silver does that mean I can get 100oz of physical silver from the seller at anytime? In some cases yes. Some companies like Kitco will offer to store all of your gold for you. (You have to pay for it) But when you ask for your physical bullion back they will ship it to you. Quote: 2. Does it mean I have just bought an option on 100oz of silver that I will never see, or worse 100oz of silver that never existed. In most cases, you will never see the actual silver unless you buy from a company like I mentioned above, and pay them for storage. Quote: 3. Do the sellers actually have the physical silver on hand to back up the paper sale? I am not sure on this one, but my guess would be probably not. Quote: 4. Am I an idiot for even contemplating the idea of buying Paper Silver? Not at all. When investors wanna buy silver, they are not buying physical silver because they do not want to pay to store mass amounts (thousands of ounces) of bullion, so there best bet is the "paper silver" It would also be a lot easier to sell than physical silver.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1502 Posts |
I think the short answer is it depends, for all of your questions Are you talking about silver ETF? silver storage? options?
There are loads more people more knowledgeable and articulate than I on the matter, so I will shy away from answering and the them take this one
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Valued Member
United States
172 Posts |
I met a man who tried to pay for some food at a Hockey game with a Norfed silver round...and got accused of counterfieting. Norfed got raided...and I am sure someday, if they really wanted to powerful people (whether it be government or organized crime or other).... would go in and take that physical silver...
Remember what FDR did...confiscated a lot of gold from private citizens' safety deposit boxes...
So,where to store your stash? Exactly....if you get a good safe, there is always a better safecracker..... If you bury it, somebody could detect it....
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1454 Posts |
From what I've heard, it's a Ponzi scheme and there is no way in the world that the banks or hedge funds running the ETFs have anywhere near the amount they sell. But even so, you're "probably" alright investing in paper silver as long as you claim your share before some crisis that has everyone demanding silver all at once. I imagine that's the only way things will get dicey. Like CB said, it all depends on the amount you want to store. Is it more than you can safely store at home, perhaps in a large safe, which might cost $500 or more to install, assuming you even have the room for one? And if you're buying in quantity, ask yourself, would it be better to purchase gold, considering the amount of space a comparable block takes up? Of course, people claim the silver-gold ratio is way out whack compared to historical averages and silver has far more of an upside than gold. Then again, because there is a lot more volatility built into the silver market, some people don't have the stomach for wide its swings. Lots of questions?
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Valued Member
United States
172 Posts |
You could buy pre-1964 silver US coins which are legal tender...or 1965-1970 40% silver half dollars... If you want to use silver to buy bread, chickens, a car, etc...look at what prices were back in 1960 of various things (in silver coins...for example, $2.00 for a steak dinner would be about 22x face value or about $44 and you would not be too far off what you can buy if and when the dollar goes kablooey...) ...sound farfetched? Look up "billion reichmark note" for 1920's inflation in Germany after the war..... If it were me, I would get many many dimes, some quarters and some Franklin halfs...and stash them around the house....maybe in some of those fake coke cans they have in headshops...diversify what and where you hide for real security...maybe take a lessons from the ancient Egyptions and have a pink poreceline porcine bank with $50 or so in dirty silver....as a "honeypot"...thieves take that and stop looking...low hanging fruit and so forth...I guess you need to ask yourself, what are really buying silver FOR?
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
808 Posts |
Lots of valid comments here. I'd just add that investing in silver via an ETF is probably no better or worse than any other fiat investment. As long as the financial system is working, you can get in and out at will. I personally do believe, however, that the only rational reason for considering buying into the ETF is if the size of your investment makes taking physical possession impractical.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4008 Posts |
Quote: Remember what FDR did...confiscated a lot of gold from private citizens' safety deposit boxes... Actually, there is a lot of misinformation out there on this. The fact is, FDR issued executive order 6102 in April of 1933. This, illegal IMHO, move on his part was done to transfer gold from the banks, where most of the gold was at that time, to the US Treasury. They did not steal the gold, although they did force people to sell it to them whether or not they wanted to sell it. They bought it at the then going rate of $20.67 per oz. Of course, once all of the gold was collected that they thought they could get, the US dollar was devaluated by 40%. They did this by resetting the official price of gold to $35 per ounce. As to the supposed raid on safety deposit boxes... this was ONLY done in the cases where the banks wherein the boxes were located had failed. This was a minuscule number of banks in the overall scheme of things and was not a government program to rip off ALL safety deposit boxes for gold and silver goodies. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102Far more recently, however, the State of California DOES have an official program for the confiscation of "abandoned property". This would be fine if the property were truly abandoned but they have carried this FAR beyond that. Initially, they considered safety deposit box property to be abandoned if the holder of the box had not contacted the bank in the past 3 years. This was then changed to 2 years and then to 1 year. They are now considering a 6 month time limit. In several cases, family heirlooms were grabbed and then sold for a small fraction of their true value, even though the box holder's name, address, and phone number were on documents inside the box. No one bothered to call or otherwise contact them before stealing their property. This is FAR more shameful behavior than anything done by FDR and is a lot more recent. See: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4832471&page=1as one example of this skullduggerous behavior. Google will show many others.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2168 Posts |
Yes the escheat law timeframe has dwindled from 20 years to 2 Or 3 years in NJ and back even a few years ago letters had to go out and post in a newspaper as well now it just goes to the state. Of course you can get $$ back. No clue on safe deposit boxes but I'm sure those have lessened in timeframe as well
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Valued Member
344 Posts |
If you are buying paper silver as a long term investment with the idea of actually buying real silver, DON'T. Just buy real physical silver.
If you are buying paper silver to do some day trading on the market then go it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2168 Posts |
I have a bad feeling on anything paper anymore even physical PMs if not in possession. At MF Global I believe some of those suffering a loss had receipts for actual PMs held by MF. I had read thAt all were osing 20pervent of face of their investment. Not sure if that was what actually happened but I would never chance it
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4008 Posts |
Paper silver, as an investment, is for people who really do not want a lot of metal laying around, they just want an investment vehicle that (supposedly) mimics the price of silver. Most of these investors have no intention of ever receiving any metal. All they want is to make some money from moves in the price of silver. They can go long if they expect prices to rise or short if they expect prices to fall.
In some cases, people can buy silver futures that they can either trade to make a profit or hold until they can "stand for delivery" of the metal that is equal in value to the price of the futures contract at that time. This is how Gerald Celente got hammered for hundreds of thousands of dollars. He had purchased gold futures contracts when gold was around $1450 per oz. When it was in the area of $1750-1800 per ounce, he wanted to receive metal and not cash. Unfortunately for him and a lot of other MF Global investors, MFG went bust and could not make good on their promise to deliver the gold that these investors were owed. To top that off, the CME could have come in and made these investors whole from their supposed $8B insurance fund but decided not to. This is a tangled web that could take years to fully resolve. Because of this, anyone wanting physical precious metals should just buy them and not get enmeshed in the paper metal games that are being played.
One form of paper PMs that can be used by investors are the metals ETFs. Some of these are physical metals ETFs, which means that every ounce they claim to hold in the ETF is really there and is not loaned, leased, hypothecated, or re-hypothecated. It is owned by the people who hold the ETF shares and, typically, is audited on a regular basis by an independent auditor. I own some shares of a couple of these, namely, SIVR and PPLT. If I were to invest in a gold ETF, I would consider SGOL. I am not recommending these to anyone because whether or not one invests in them depends completely on their personal situation. They are working pretty well for me, though, and I consider them as longer term holdings of 6-8 years and perhaps longer.
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Replies: 12 / Views: 3,346 |
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