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 Replies: 83 / Views: 32,762 |
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Valued Member
United States
120 Posts |
I happened across this listing today. It is basically a very clever take on the "could it be an S?" sales tactic. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl..._2269wt_1037Based on a quick search of his feedback, he has probably sold at least 150 of these over the past 9 months (was too lazy to go back any further), usually for at least several hundred dollars, if not more. If the SF Fed rolled coin in 1909, I could believe that there once existed a bunch of rolls with outward facing VDB's on each end. However, the Fed's didn't start rolling coin until the 1940's or after (and before someone points it out, they don't roll coin anymore). Thus the existence of a large quantity of SF Fed wrapped rolls with outward facing VDBs is statistically improbable to say the least. Further, given that coins really don't circulate all that much outside their intended geographic region, the existence of a large quantity of SF Fed wrapped roll with two outward facing Philidelphia mint coins is as close to statistically impossible as you're going to get. So, basically, people are paying $700 for probably $70 in coins (wild guess, might be off) and the illusion that they might get lucky with a VDB S. This irritates me since sellers like this make it much more difficult for honest sellers. So how is he faking the rolls? Both sides look genuinely machine crimped (though an electric crimper would be worth buying given his margins). Is he bleaching conventional wrappers to get that raw kraft paper look, and then stamping with a custom stamp? Really would like to figure this out. Thanks! FYI, I checked a couple sourcing sites, and couldn't find any Chinese manufacturers of SF Fed wrappers.  |
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Valued Member
 United States
120 Posts |
Sorry for the second post, but it just occurred to me that for $700 one could buy two very respectable 1909 S VDB's.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1796 Posts |
This is a common ebay money maker. The wrappers can be bought or manufactured with little difficulty, and then rolled with a hand-roller to look machine-sealed. The only VDB in the roll is probably the edge coin and one other thrown into the mix (if the feedback is to be believed). One can also purchase very convincing, very shiny VDB counterfeits online for a song. People pay high for them because it's the thrill of the gamble. Edited by SteveCaruso
03/24/2012 9:47 pm
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Valued Member
United States
120 Posts |
Quote:This is a common ebay money maker. Yes, I've seen it a lot. However, it is one thing to put a bunch of coins into a generic coin wrapper, and completely another when putting it into a fake SF Fed wrapper, and billing it as original and unsearched. The former is sleazy, the latter is unconscionable. Quote:
The wrappers can be bought or manufactured with little difficulty So there are actually websites that stock fake wrappers? Quote:
The wrappers can be bought or manufactured with little difficulty I'm not familiar with hand rollers. What are they? I know of hand crimpers, but those never come close to duplicating the results of an electric crimper. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
3039 Posts |
$699.99 with 55 bidders. Are you kidding me! Wow. Barnum was wrong. There's more than one born every minute. Maybe I can start selling some rolls with these wrappers.  Edited by numismo
03/24/2012 10:37 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
842 Posts |
Seller says: Quote:
ITS AN ORIGINAL BANK WRAPPED ROLL FROM THE "FEDERAL RESERVE BANK OF SAN FRANCISCO"! marken984 says: Quote:
However, the Fed's didn't start rolling coin until the 1940's or after (and before someone points it out, they don't roll coin anymore). So, how can this be an 'original bank wrapped roll' if they did not roll them back in the early 1900's? And before you say "well, it could have been rolled later..." stop. If that were the case then those coins would not be in that condition. Therefor the sellers claim that these are 'original' is false. Am I mistaken in saying that this is grounds for reporting the listing as fraud? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1903 Posts |
There is nothing outright fraudulent in anything this seller says. Me makes no claims they are rolled by the mint. And he only makes a claim to them "being in the vault 25 years". As always, by the goods not the story. I know PROFESSIINALS who haven't learned this rule yet. Coming from someone who used to live and die by making profitable deals on collectibles...... buy the item and just smile and grin at the story...stories are good over coffee but wont buy you the second cup
Edited by unholyroller
03/24/2012 10:49 pm
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Valued Member
United States
120 Posts |
Quote:
Me [sic] makes no claims they are rolled by the mint. And I suppose it's good he didn't, since it was the Fed, not the Mint, that supposedly rolled those coins. Although, he did take a picture of the roll on top of a green monster, in an effort to add credibility and confuse people. Quote:
There is nothing outright fraudulent in anything this seller says. Quote:
ITS AN ORIGINAL BANK WRAPPED ROLL FROM THE "FEDERAL RESERVE BANK OF SAN FRANCISCO"! So, if one makes a roll with a fake SF Fed wrapper, and then bills it as an original roll wrapped by the SF Fed, that's not fraud? And no, putting quotes around 'Federal Reserve Bank Of San Francisco' does not change anything. Well, maybe if you are in grammar school it would. In fact, it would actually be quite a good defense. Quote:
Coming from someone who used to live and die by making profitable deals join [sic] collectibles...... buy the item and just smile and grin at the story...stories are good over coffee but wont buy you the second cup True words. However, I worry about people who don't know that, and get taken advantage of, in a brazen manner. |
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Valued Member
United States
120 Posts |
Quote:
Maybe I can start selling some rolls with these wrappers. Did you just make that with a stamp? Sadly, it would probably work. |
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Valued Member
United States
230 Posts |
I am going way out on a limb with a remark on a topic I know nothing about, early 20th century bank roll wrappers. The wrapper is labled "50c PENNIES" and it seems to me that if anyone would properly label them CENTS it would be the US Mint.
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Valued Member
United States
120 Posts |
Quote:
And before you say "well, it could have been rolled later..." stop. If that were the case then those coins would not be in that condition If he only sold one, I could maybe believe it to be a one off. Or at the very least look the other way. However, given the volume, yes, I think you are quite right. They wouldn't be in that condition. Quote:
Am I mistaken in saying that this is grounds for reporting the listing as fraud? I think so, but then again I've had a couple of beers (um, of the root variety - family friendly forum and all), and I'm a bit of a newbie, so I'm not going to make any decisions until other, more experienced forum members comment, and my blood alco....I mean blood glucose levels return to normal. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Well not to split hairs--But if the seller made this roll himself, and I really suspect he did (how else do you get those VDB ends)--then his banter about "old, old original bank roll from the SF Federal Reserve" etc. is certainly fraudulent. There is deceit between what he knows, and what he's telling the bidder--imo. It's not hard to predict how this will end...the winning bidder will open their package, and their heart will sink when they discover 2 1909-VDBs and a bunch of junk cents in the middle--these negs say it all.  Edited by DVCollector
03/24/2012 11:14 pm
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Valued Member
United States
120 Posts |
Quote:
I am going way out on a limb with a remark on a topic I know nothing about, early 20th century bank roll wrappers. The wrapper is labled "50c PENNIES" and it seems to me that if anyone would properly label them CENTS it would be the US Mint.
I thought the exact same thing. What do more knowledgeable members think? Do we have an expert on early 20th century bank roll wrappers on the forum? |
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Rest in Peace
United States
3039 Posts |
At least my wrapper has "Cents" on it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1903 Posts |
Here is another identical roll from the same seller...but do yourselves a favor and look at the "V.D.B." image fourth from the left. Notice the pitted surface of the coin...these are fakes...it is very obvious! http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-ROLL-LI...132334068045 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Markn, I think Coppercoins would know for sure. Did banks even use paper rolls in 1909? The printing/style is not that old, it looks more like 40s-50s to me--maybe that's what's inside?  |
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Replies: 83 / Views: 32,762 |
Posted 03/24/2012 9:46 pm
