Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!300,000 items to help build your collection! Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Specializing in Modern Numismatics Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

RCM Rep Please Read - Honest Opinion And Suggestions

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 22 / Views: 4,294Next Topic
Page: of 2
Pillar of the Community
poboxw's Avatar
Canada
1502 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  03:16 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add poboxw to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
It was one of the best and most exiting thing to come the forum when the RCM rep made an appearance. Unfortunately it did not last. This is understandable, I suppose. Given the point questions some of us threw at the rep, we can't really expect her to remain active on the forum while balancing being personal and personable with staying professional and officially representing RCM in its entirety. The consolation is, given the recent sting on publishing Masters Club pictures ahead of general release, it seem the RCM is still keeping an eye out here. So, it's with this in mind that I started this thread and welcome fellow forum members, RCM die-hard fans, and collectors to contribute constructive suggestions to the RCM team


I'll begin with what I feel is a problem that the RCM can address with no real investment or negative consequence:

The Back-Story:
I am lucky to have an RCM dealer I can frequent locally. This dealer is personable, very helpful, knowledgeable, and yet remains very humble; properties that embodies the Canadian, and what feel should also be the RCM, spirit.

The Good:
One of the things I love about this dealer is that even though he trades in low volumes, he always, and I mean Always, sell at issue price the coins he is allotted through the RCM. The only time prices are adjusted upwards is for coins he purchases on the secondary market. True collectors, not hoarders and speculators, really do appreciate being able to purchase RCM products at issue price around release time.

The Problems:
1) There's nothing more off-putting to find a beautiful coin sold out before it hits the market, only then to see Authorized RCM dealers inflate the price of of coins they would've profited on at issue price anyways.
2) The RCM seems to be trying to slowly push smaller dealers out of the market. Lower volume dealers, like the honest one in my town, are allotted a certain amount of coins to sell based on past sales records. However, the RCM is now cutting back on the allotment, subsequently reducing the ability for the dealer to qualify to even maintain the same allotment for the next round of coins.
- I understand that it is likely more profitable for the RCM to sell via their own website as oppose to go through dealers. But, if the RCM plans to continue distributing through dealers, there is no reason to give the advantage to large, opportunistic dealers like gatewest and colonial acres. These dealers will only bring volatility to the market and turn away collectors... Understand that this is not the secondary market. RCM dealers are front line distributors of RCM products, yet these larger dealers appears to abuse their position... The secondary market will determine and settle on fair prices for RCM products, but not with large dealers holding large volumes of low mintage coins and selling at inflated prices from the get-go.

The Suggestion:
If it is in the RCM's plan to end dealerships and restrict retail sales through RCM only avenues, I don't feel there can be any constructive objections. If, though, the RCM have no plans cut dealers, I strongly feel that the RCM should reconsider their strategy to the distribution of coins. While dealers should have the right to adjust their prices (all the more since dealers do buy back on the 2ndary market and need to be able to adjust resale price), the RCM really should reconsider awarding large volumes of low mintage coins to large dealers that inflate prices. Not much effort is required on the RCM part to take care of the small-timers, and it's the small-timers that give RCM products a good name.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
590 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  06:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dooby Rak to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Mint is cutting low level dealers for a new distributor. Sounds like were talking about drugs not coins.

The new player in the game is the Post Office. They must be exchanging shipping services for coins to sell. People are now even complaining that the mint will issue 10,000 coins and suddenly the coin will show up in 5,000 issue special post office set. No one is then certain did they produce 10,000 or 15,000 of the coin. Titanic 50 cent coin is one example.

I've seen this game played in other industries usually when a market starts to reach its saturation point. To many coins to collect now days and not enough customers. This usually results in the manufacture trying to preserve profits by killing off small level suppliers and concentrating sales within its own means or within super sellers. In the end it only hurts the brand.

I don't think we little people can help the mint also. They are far more superior, far to smart and far more important than us to take advice from a lowly commoner, a mere present.
Edited by Dooby Rak
05/23/2012 06:40 am
Pillar of the Community
MoneyPenney's Avatar
Canada
2984 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  09:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MoneyPenney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can't agree with Dooby Rak. Pobox is 100% correct. The big coin dealers are the ones inflating the prices of the low mintage coins. Gatewest is the worst of them all. I remember Gatewest changing the price of the bumble bee coin 3 times in one day. Why didn't they just sell out at the listed price instead of gouging the customer. They are already getting a discount from 15-20% for each coin. As a offical distributor of the Mint, they should not be allowed to sell above the listed prices. For example, when the iPad came out, all the retailers had to sell at a set price. No dealer was allowed to charge a premium on the iPad.

As for the post office, it is not true they are a new player to the game. They have been selling coins for more than ten years. Also, the post office has free shipping and I don't see them charging a premium for sold out coins. So why are the big coin dealers allowed to charge above the list price and not the post office?

Pillar of the Community
Canada
590 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  09:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dooby Rak to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Post office is not new, but the are now players and want a bigger cut of the money. Why should people like Gatewest make all the money. The Post office want a bigger taste. The looser is the little dealers. From what I hear they are loosing the most. Even my local dealer had his allotments cut. The post office may not be gauging but they are effecting prices by controlling inventory allocation. I don't blame dealers like Gatewest for charging more. They are getting less coins and have to do more with less, if that means charging more for in demand product, so be it. This is a free market system and its all about supply and demand. If there was no demand for the product there would be no reason to raise prices.

Valued Member
Hobbes's Avatar
Canada
207 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  11:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hobbes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the Post office becoming a bigger player is a good thing. As far as I can tell they always sell at list price and there so many small postal outlets that the coins get scattered all over. This means anyone can stumble upon a coin well after the mint sells out. e.g. many people have found the glass bee coin at postal outlets, getting the coin before MC preorders.

Not sure I agree that "Gatewest is the worst". Let me ask this, how many people bought the bee at issue price from Gatewest? 100's I guess, How about Colonial? zero? And J&M? zero again? I could be wrong here but as far as I noticed this was true.

Gatewest takes flak because they were the only active sellers at the release of the bee coin. The others sat back to let the dust settle and sell all their allotment for higher than issue price.

I agree a free market should set the price, but how is it a free market when the big dealers get access to the coins at issue price (less 15% margin).
Valued Member
130 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  11:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rockdaddy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
J&M sold the glass bee at original Mint price.
Valued Member
Hobbes's Avatar
Canada
207 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  11:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hobbes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I stand corrected.

Though I will ask did you get them at that price? I ordered dinos from them at issue price and got an order confirmation. The next day they emailed me and cancelled my order.
Valued Member
falcon's Avatar
Canada
457 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  11:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add falcon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the biggest problem is we really have no idea how the inventory is divided up.
If the mint wanted to make sure everyone that wanted a coin got one at the list price they could do it very easily, but you need to realise they don't care how much the end buyer pays.
Their profit is based on unloading x amount of coins in x amount of time.
Nothing else matters, they know no matter how mad you get you will still buy from them, and if you don't someone else will.

Now if I ran the mint ....I would probably be very popular with some people but not everyone.
The first thing I would do is cut back on the mintage numbers, I think any more then 5000 of a granny or grandpa bait , aka gift ware coin is to much. I do not believe there are that many people in Canada interested in most of the gift coins out there, the bulk of the buying seams to be speculators trying to turn a quick buck.
Next I would set buying limits to everyone at one coin, now I know some people would still end up with a few of them by using friends or family to by for you but it would at least be a start.
And last I would try and keep sale price at around 25%-50% over melt that way the mint would still make a profit and the buyer would have something they like at a reasonable price.

I guess you can see why I'm not in charge
Valued Member
Hobbes's Avatar
Canada
207 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  12:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hobbes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Meanwhile from the mint website:

Quote:
Royal Canadian Mint Celebrates Year of Remarkable Financial Performance
Corporation achieves $3.2 billion in revenues and $43.8 million in pre-tax profits in 2011


They are not motivated to change the status quo.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
590 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  12:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dooby Rak to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is the problem with the mint or retailers or speculators? People like it when their coin goes up in value. The only problem is that its not hard to manipulate the market. Look at the last Niobium, the pink one. The coin is going to appeal to women, collectors of the series, and speculators. I bought two for my wife a daughter. I did not buy the previous coins in the series. This coin sold out so fast, but who is responsible? If the post office orders more of this coin than previous one the dealers loose. The dealers will order more knowing their orders will be cut. Now that the coin is sold out the street price is bound to be high. So people go to the post office and buy all the inventory and flip the coins for double on ebay. The Aster Bumble Bee is a good example of this. This is the free market at work.

The only way to solve this is less coins and unlimited mint runs. Well almost unlimited. Look at the US mint:
2012 Star-Spangled Banner Uncirculated Silver Dollar -- (SS4) - The 2012 Star-Spangled Banner Silver Dollar is limited to 500,000 coins (across all product options).

If want to collect ugly coins that are no problem to buy from the mint we can all become Americans. The real problem is greed, on many, many levels.
Edited by Dooby Rak
05/23/2012 12:18 pm
Pillar of the Community
CC-Ottawa's Avatar
Canada
3690 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  12:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CC-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
$43.8M on $3.2B is a pathetic 1.4% pretax return. That is a grocery store standard. Actually, Loblaws returned more than twice that percentage last year in a high volume, low margin business.

Frankly, as a business with a virtual monopoly selling low volume, high margin products (at least on the NCLT side), the RCM severely under achieves. Obviously, profit motive is not their primary mandate but don't believe their marketing department's statement that they are remarkably profitable.

I personally don't see many problems with the distribution of coins. As far as I know, every coin this year has been available at issue price for any collector who wanted them. If anyone missed out, look in the mirror.

Further to that, and something I've asked before, why do some people think that they should be able to buy every coin whenever they want at issue price? If you think that, then should they also be forced to buy all the unpopular coins that don't appreciate? There are many more of the latter than there are of the former.

I mean, if you sit back and wait until it's obvious that a coin is a hit (and appreciating in value) and then moan because you didn't get one, then you should be willing to buy unpopular coins (that are deprecating) at issue price, right? It's only fair.

I guess the solution is that mintage numbers go like some other mints and then the products become as common as Honda Civics so we can all have one. That would be fun eh? Who's in for that?
Edited by CC-Ottawa
05/23/2012 12:58 pm
Valued Member
Center Pin's Avatar
Canada
178 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  6:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Center Pin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would be happy if shipping got sorted out, that's all I ask for.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
590 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  6:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dooby Rak to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
$43.8M on $3.2B is a pathetic 1.4% pretax return. That is a grocery store standard. Actually, Loblaws returned more than twice that percentage last year in a high volume, low margin business.


Man making the penny was really killing them. Good thing they got rid of it.

They post does not mention the following:

A dividend payment of $10 million to its shareholder, the Government of Canada;

Breaking ground in Winnipeg to begin a $60 million expansion of the Mint's plating facility, which will add 60,000 square feet and increase plating capacity by two billion pieces a year;

Add those to the $43 min and profits are more respectable, but not great. I'm sure the mint is a cash cow, There just never going to let us really know how much they make.
Pillar of the Community
CC-Ottawa's Avatar
Canada
3690 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  7:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CC-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Add those to the $43 min and profits are more respectable, but not great.


From an accounting standpoint, you are adding apples and oranges. Dividend payments and capital expenditures do not directly impact reported profit.


Quote:
There just never going to let us really know how much they make.


Not to get too far off topic or to defend the mint, but the mint has an independent audit committee comprised of non directors and employees. In addition, the RCM is subject to audit by external auditors and the Auditor General of Canada (most recently Sheila Fraser and now Michael Ferguson). As well, the RCM is held accountable by at least two acts of Parliament.

They are better controlled, audited and regulated than most corporations in Canada. Anyone with knowledge of financial statements and the ability to read the annual reports knows exactly the financial strength of the Mint.



Edited by CC-Ottawa
05/23/2012 7:07 pm
Valued Member
Hobbes's Avatar
Canada
207 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  7:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hobbes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Being a crown corporation, does the RCM want to show a lot of profit?
Pillar of the Community
poboxw's Avatar
Canada
1502 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2012  8:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add poboxw to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sucks to be the little guy. That, I guess, is the conclusion.
  Previous TopicReplies: 22 / Views: 4,294Next Topic
Page: of 2

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.48 seconds to rattle this change. Forums