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Possible Fake 1859/8 Zs 8R On The Bay?

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tewcd's Avatar
United States
20 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2012  8:45 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add tewcd to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Wanted to get a call on this -- the auction is closed, but I considered bidding until I started looking at this closer. I think the center design is OK, but the lettering looks strange -- unusually "fat" and lumpy.

Here's what's on ebay (certified by those [insert adjective plus noun here] at NNC, of course):

Possible-Fake-1859/8-Zs-8R-On-The-Bay?
Possible-Fake-1859/8-Zs-8R-On-The-Bay?

Here's a true example sold by Stacks:

Possible-Fake-1859/8-Zs-8R-On-The-Bay?
Possible-Fake-1859/8-Zs-8R-On-The-Bay?

These two coins are clearly different dies, at the minimum. I'm not the best at spotting fakes yet, but I want to see if I'm alone in this.

1. Compared to Resplandores, the overdate is supposed to be visible below the "9", and the 9 is supposed to be actually a little higher than the "5". On the ebay example, the "9" is in line with the "5", and the undertype appears above the "9".

2. The star before 8R is "fat" and lumpy, but the star in Resplandores and Stacks is slimmer and "pointier".

3. The Lettering seems fatter, almost like its been soldered on. The "Z", the "8" and "R" in 8R, the "M" in the assayers' initials all look too "fat".

4. The dentils look too "receded" from the lettering -- in the Stacks and Resplandores examples the dentils are more intrusive. I understand that this could be a planchet issue, but in Zs examples I see, if one side has little to no dentil presence, the other side usually has "excessively large dentils".

5. On the reverse, the Eagle head looks a little off to me.

I understand why the overdating occurs, and I understand that Zacatecas had poor dies and quality issues, but this seems a little too neat. Also, would it be possible to have two different overdate dies? There's already a no-overdate variety for this date, and Resplandores only shows one overdate example. If I understand correctly, the difference in overdating (if this was genuine) would have to mean there would be 2 entirely different dies.

Perhaps this is a standard 1859? Or one that has been tampered with to take it from a common coin to a scarcer one? Let me know if I'm off-base, or if I am actually getting the hang of this.
Edited by tewcd
06/27/2012 8:53 pm
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lorenzocarrillo94's Avatar
United States
49 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2012  9:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lorenzocarrillo94 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah I'm not buying that numbering and lettering at all.
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Czech Republic
803 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2012  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting coin. If it's a fake - it would've fooled me from these images. But then again, I wouldn't be buying Cap and Rays to begin with.

The question I would like to know the answer to is how often do you see different dies with the same overdate for the same mint?
Edited by TwoKopeiki
06/27/2012 10:56 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
685 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2012  11:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Westwood Arms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My guess is that it is real, but if I was going to buy it, which I would not, I would ask somebody who knows this stuff much better than I.

Date side fields seem too clean. Agree lettering is odd but these mints were all over the place. The snake in eagle's beak, esp the beak (spanish folklore) is a good point to ID and these seem to match. The date may have been tooled.
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tewcd's Avatar
United States
20 Posts
 Posted 06/29/2012  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tewcd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I guess we still don't have a definitive answer on this one. Swamper have an opinion?
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tewcd's Avatar
United States
20 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2012  1:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tewcd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bump again!
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2012  2:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have absolutely no expertise on Mexican 8R, but I have a good eye for dates.
Real or not, obviously these two have different digit positions.

Possible-Fake-1859/8-Zs-8R-On-The-Bay?
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tewcd's Avatar
United States
20 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2012  2:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tewcd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah, that was the first clue that made me curious about this. There is the possibility that there were multiple dies (as there were for most years and mints in the 8R production world), and its possible that multiple dies contained overdates.
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2012  8:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
tewcd I had missed this post, but I do recall the auction. I had it on my watch list and went back to it a couple times to see if I could see anything "new" that might change my mind.

But in the end, I formed the opinion that the coin was real. A different die than any I had seen before but a real coin.

Zacatecas in 1859 had not yet adopted full hubbing of dies. They still used a King Punch system as is described in Riddell. The large features namely Eagle and Cap were sunk into a blank die face and then a punch set was used to add each letter, number and minor features - cactus pads leaves stems etc.

So dies vary. But is it likely that there was only one or MORE dies from 1858 that were re-dated? I would believe based on the rarity that more than one die was likely to be involved.
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