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When & How Does Silver Go Down Or Up In Value?

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Pillar of the Community
Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 07/16/2012  10:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Yeah sometimes breaking even while others are losing is good enough.

Indeed it is, OG. Those are definitely among "the times that try men's souls".

Valued Member
Canada
135 Posts
 Posted 07/19/2012  6:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sixthcents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As others have stated, the simple answer is a weak dollar, or perceived weak dollar.

When you have a bad economy, gold and silver go up, as it's the safer way to store your money.

In theory, if the dollar became worthless, you could still sell your metals to another country.

An Oz of gold will always be an Oz of gold, and always worth something to somebody.
A USD dollar could literally become a piece of paper.

Which would you rather have?


It is amazing to see how out of hand things have got. I am certainly no expert, but I remember watching documentaries of the development of the American monetary system. It's mind boggling to see folks making these mistakes.

The only way it came together, was when the "Federal Reserve" literally had metal to back up every single dollar. <That's what turned the USA into an economic power house. There was no "debt ceiling nonsense"
Now, they don't. It's pretty much Monopoly money, or "borrowed" money.

I don't like to be a pessimist, if it's not turned around soon it will make the great depression look like a walk in the park.

Now you know why they used to sew silver into their clothing.< Think about it, they actually even had silver, only a select few of us will be so fortunate this time around.
Stapling dollar bills to your shirt won't do you any good, although you can burn them for heat.
Pillar of the Community
Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 07/19/2012  9:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
A USD dollar could literally become a piece of paper.

Heh heh... a Federal Reserve Note is already a "piece of paper". I know what you mean but unbacked paper currency is inherently valueless. Any value that it has is because we all think that it has value. No matter the denomination, it only costs about $0.04 to print a FRN.


Quote:
In theory, if the dollar became worthless, you could still sell your metals to another country.

Yes, we might be able to do that or we might just trade silver coins for the things that we need. In a dollar collapse scenario, people still need to get around, eat, buy fuel, etc. With no value in the dollar, people would look to something else to use as a medium of exchange. That might be gold and silver jewelry, coins, bars, and rounds or perhaps even a new currency that replaces the current US dollar. After a dollar collapse, though, any currency replacing it would have to be backed by something that most people perceive as being of real value. The loss of faith in the old currency would make most people VERY skeptical of any replacement, at least for a while.
Valued Member
Canada
135 Posts
 Posted 07/19/2012  10:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sixthcents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree, when/before the first 13 Colonies were formed, Spanish coins were the most trusted.

Commodities were also more valuable, like animal pelts, tobacco and even Indian beads.

The Colonies then tried to each have their own currency, which quickly depreciated, so did the currency created after revolutionary war.("Continental Currency")

To make it even more worthless, the British conterfeited the currency.(Something we do to ourselves today, not literally, but practically).


When the Constitution was ratified in 1788, individual states were no longer allowed to print their own money.

The coinage act of 1792 created the United States Mint, which finally regulated the currency for the whole country.

Here is a list I copied and pasted of the original conforming currency. Notice there is no zinc, lol.

Eagles $10 247 4/8 grain (16.0 g) pure or 270 grain (17.5 g) standard gold
Half Eagles $5 123 6/8 grain (8.02 g) pure or 135 grain (8.75 g) standard gold
Quarter Eagles $2.50 61 7/8 grain (4.01 g) pure or 67 4/8 grain (4.37 g) standard gold
Dollars or Units $1 371 4/16 grain (24.1 g) pure or 416 grain (27.0 g) standard silver
Half Dollars $0.50 185 10/16 grain (12.0 g) pure or 208 grain (13.5 g) standard silver
Quarter Dollars $0.25 92 13/16 grain (6.01 g) pure or 104 grains (6.74 g) standard silver
Dismes $0.10 37 2/16 grain (2.41 g) pure or 41 3/5 grain (2.70 g) standard silver
Half Dismes $0.05 18 9/16 grain (1.20 g) pure or 20 4/5 grain (1.35 g) standard silver
Cents $0.01 11 pennyweights (17.1 g) of copper
Half Cents $0.005 5 1/2 pennyweights (8.55 g) of copper


The "Federal reserve note" of today is no longer backed by gold and silver in the reserve bank(s)

Example: The "Obligation clause" on a 1950 note states "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private, and is redeemable IN LAWFUL MONEY AT THE UNITED STATES TREASURY, OR AT ANY FEDERAL RESERVE BANK"

The "Obligation Clause" of the current note states: "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private"

The key difference is a modern note is a piece of debt, not currency. It was created as a form of "credit" for the gubment. You can't trade it for squat, after all, it's debt, not currency, it says it right there in the clause, you can only purchase "debt" with it, it is NOT directly redeemable for "money"(metals etc.) like the last couple hundred years.

It's all in the wording, if you go to the Reserve with post 1950s money, it's worthless. I highly doubt they would honor pre 1950s money either but you could try, bring your lawyer.


Edited by Sixthcents
07/19/2012 10:34 pm
Pillar of the Community
Libertad's Avatar
Canada
3692 Posts
 Posted 07/19/2012  10:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Libertad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sixthcents: The obligation clause makes me laugh. If this note can be redeemed for lawful money, then by definition it is unlawful money. I should start a car company that sell lemons that read: can be traded for a real automobile and then recant my offer after the illusion kicks in. We live in Emerald City.
Valued Member
Canada
135 Posts
 Posted 07/20/2012  12:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sixthcents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It sure is silly.

I suppose the notes are not "unlawful money", because it is not money at all.

Definitions of Tender:
"Latin root is tendere (to stretch out)"
"medium of payment"
"English word- extend, to hold outward (credit)"

Technically, "In some jurisdictions legal tender can be refused as payment if no debt exists prior to the time of payment"

Wouldn't it be nice if the Government paid you interest on the debt you hold for them.
Edited by Sixthcents
07/20/2012 12:45 am
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Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 07/20/2012  6:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I agree, when/before the first 13 Colonies were formed, Spanish coins were the most trusted.

Indeed they were and most likely because they were made of high purity (for those days) gold and silver. In fact, the word "dollar" is a Spanish word, probably pronounced originally as "doLAR". Spain also issued an 8 reale silver coin that that was very similar in size to the later produced US silver dollar and could be divided into 8 pieces, each piece being a "piece of eight".


Quote:
To make it even more worthless, the British conterfeited the currency.

Indeed they did. That was a classic case of what goes around comes around. The Germans counterfeited British currency during WW II in an effort to destabilize the British economy as well as to provide Germany with some hard currency.


Quote:
The "Federal reserve note" of today is no longer backed by gold and silver in the reserve bank(s)

No it isn't. Some of us on here are old enough to remember when silver certificate currency was in common use and could be exchanged for silver dollars at most banks and even some stores.

My thought on money is that it should be backed by something, even if that something is the strength of the economy of the nation that issues it. Without backing, bankers and politicians tend to form an unholy alliance that seeks economic problem resolution via printing the currency to extinction. That has happened repeatedly throughout history.


Quote:
The key difference is a modern note is a piece of debt, not currency.

EXACTLY! This is the definition of a "note" in financial circles... a debt obligation, such as a promissory note or a mortgage note. These are the PROMISE to pay a debt at some time in the future while gold and silver are immediate payment... in full, if the amount of metal is sufficient.
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