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Smelting Figures To Mint?

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Canada
202 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2012  4:58 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add darcyrmt to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I was in a coin store a few days ago when a family came in turning in their grandfathers silver collection and coin collection. I didn't interfere in the private transaction but I did see a lot of silver dollars and halves being cashed in. I went back the next day asking to see some of the coins that the owner had bought and he looked at me and said they are in a box and going straight to the smelter, Including two tubes of uncirculated 1965 small bead dollars.
The first thing I thought was the value of remaining coins like that one were going to go up based on lowering of numbers. But then it hit me, how would anybody know other than the smelter that the number of 1965 SB dollars had gone down? Do they have to report melting of such things to some kind of overseeing body or authority? How can collectors or investors really get a true number of what is available if there Is no explanation for declining numbers such as there is for the 1921 Canada five cent piece? Thanks and sorry for the long post..
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16859 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2012  9:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Do they have to report melting of such things to some kind of overseeing body or authority?

No. Smelting coin of the realm is still technically illegal in Canada. It's a law that's apparently widely flaunted, but anyone that phoned the Mint up and told them they were melting Canadian coins in bulk for profit would probably be in line for a friendly visit by the RCMP.

The Mint itself is probably still the biggest coin smelter, certainly in terms of length of time in operation and quantity of coins destroyed - even before silver was withdrawn from the coinage, they were responsible for melting down old worn-out coins to make new ones. And the Mint has never kept track of which specific dates are being melted. All they need to keep track of is the face value and the weight of metal recovered.

Quote:
How can collectors or investors really get a true number of what is available if there Is no explanation for declining numbers such as there is for the 1921 Canada five cent piece?

You can't. Precise, accurate numbers of the number of surviving specimens of any coin are impossible to obtain, except perhaps for the super-high-end rarities where every surviving specimen has a well-known established provenance. However, for everything except the super-high-end rarities, it doesn't really make too much difference.

What's most important for determining value is the relative rarity, not the absolute rarity. And one can assume that, unless one knows otherwise, the Mint has melted down the same proportion of each date and variety. A coin with 6 million mintage is still going to be roughly 10 times rarer than a coin of the same time period with 60 million mintage, even if roughly 9/10 of them have been melted by now.

Where the imbalance is occurring is in recent private smelting. Because, in most instances, the coins going to the private smelters are being filtered by their suppliers (such as coin dealers) for "rare" dates and varieties prior to going into the pot. If private melting is prolific, the net result is that "common" dates gradually get rarer and rarer, until eventually people start to notice that the coins previously considered "common" aren't so common anymore.

Quote:
Thanks and sorry for the long post..

If you think your post was long, you obviously haven't read many of my posts.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Valued Member
Canada
202 Posts
 Posted 10/17/2012  11:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add darcyrmt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the explanation, from a Mod no less. And yes, I've seen your posts!
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secoinedchance's Avatar
Canada
449 Posts
 Posted 10/17/2012  8:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add secoinedchance to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Funny, I was thinking the same thing the other day. It seems to me that the real populations for "regular" circulation coins is hard enough to figure out, much less the populations of the more difficult to obtain "rare" coins. I believe there's a whole lot of melting going on with the price of silver being what it is at the moment.
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1945V's Avatar
Canada
386 Posts
 Posted 10/17/2012  8:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1945V to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I remember reading a series of posts on an American coin site where they pointed out an interesting phenomenon.

Typically most coins that go to the smelter tend to be more common dates and varieties in general circulation. Most rare dates and unusual varieties have survived thanks to hoarding by collectors early on.

This would mean that most 1948 dollars minted are still around, whereas a large percentage of more common dates like 1939 and 1949 dollars have probably been smelted in the great coin melts of the late 1960's and late 1970's.
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