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Up On The Numismatic Soapbox

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Pillar of the Community

United States
2724 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  3:18 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add national dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
In regards to my last installment about the ANA I thought that it would be appropriate to make a laundry list of needs for the numismatic community. If I were running for an office or putting together a numismatic organization this would be the goals.

Grading standards. While everyone will state that grading is subjective, there NEEDS to be some form of baseline used and enforced.
Grading Companies. Following with this thought, graders and their companies need to be held responsible for their assigned grades.
Real Rules. There needs to be hard and fast rules that equally apply to each and every person in the group. Dealers and collectors alike.
Community involvement. This is a passion and needs to be taken to the masses. A good coin representative must go outside the hobby to find collectors. The coin shows are nice, but just a fraction of numbers of collectors.
Correct referrence material. This one is self explanatory. We have the ability and resources to have the best books/online guides possible. It is time for someone to step up and offer it.
Accountability. This is by far the most important. People have been taught that it is never their fault. Well the sad truth is that it is. We need someone to step up and lead this hobby. Make the hard decisions and not waver at the dollars being offered. Someone willing to look for the hard tough answers that most ignore. We live in a time that most collectors are dying off. If we are to survive, we need someone to lead. Someone willing to fight the good fight in Congress, and make others aware of the policies that are being ignored. Someone who will take action instead of making promises.
We need an organization that will not sell its name and integrity. A group that will include all equally. Someone who will agressively seek out collectors.
We as a group cannot sit on our butt and wait for these people to come to us. TV goes looking for them. The Sunday newspapers go looking for them. It is passed time that WE go looking for them. We are in desperate need for "our" group to take care of us. Do more than listen and forget. We need action.
I would gladly debate any ANA member. Promises are all fine and dandy, but they don't get the job done. Stop the politics and do the work!
Pillar of the Community
SFDukie's Avatar
United States
980 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  3:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SFDukie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ND,
You've gotten me thinking about the ANA. One problem is that membership is so small- both in total numbers, and as a percentage of coin collectors in the US. Membership is a paltry 23, 000 or so- so the organization has a small overall budget. Is there a coin organization in another country with a larger enrollment as a proportion of collectors? And as a total ANA newbee- it seems they are "caught" as an organization- don't have many demonstrable benefits- but need such benefits to increase membership. Aopa ( which I mentioned in your other ANA thread as an effective nonprofit advocacy group) has mebership fees which are almost identical to the ANA- yet because they are an effective group with demonstrable benefits to members- over half of all licensed pilots are members. If one took only active pilots it would be even higher, I'd venture. I don't know total number of coin collectors in the US, but whatever it is, it is more than the half million pilots here- yet ANA membership is a small fraction of all collectors.
and now that coins are in the national spotlight due to Noe's malfeasance- why isn't the ANA front and center giving input to reporters, enmphasizing positive aspects of numismatics?

Don
Edited by SFDukie
06/06/2005 3:57 pm
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rggoodie's Avatar
United States
23528 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  5:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rggoodie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm a joiner.
I think it is an illness,
but some one please give a Foreign coin collector one reason to join the ANA other than to belong or to support or "spend money".

This is not a joke post.

I would like someone to address this for those of us that are from the "darkside"
rggoodie
aka Richard
"catch em doing something right"
Rest in Peace
Mike's Avatar
United States
2884 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  6:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,now that ND has covered the topic of the current status at ANA and the lack of leadership I find myself with a ballot for an ANA election of officers and absolutely no idea of who to vote for. My membership experience was much the same as others who have posted about ANA's lack of concern about their membership. I joined, waited two or three months, got nothing in the mail, called and found out they had registered me twice and charged me twice, waited about another month, got my "welcome" package and in 8 months this is my first comminication with ANA (the Ballot). I read the candidates statements and don't think it makes any difference who I vote for. Does anyone have some insight here to assist in my submitting an educated vote? Thanks, Mike
Edited by Mike
06/07/2005 12:01 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  7:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add national dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are many benefits that the ANA could employ without a larger budget. They should be partnering with dealers to bring forth more educational programs. They "talk" about branching out to groups like the Boy Scouts, churches, and schools, but no active action has been taken that I know of.
There are other groups that are active. Aopa and the American Legion come to mind. Both are incredibly active within their membership and hold membership drives on a regular basis. The ANA has a captive audience during their conventions, yet fail to capitalize on that audience.
There are also members that have issues with how the ANA operates. My biggest problem is their desire to "sell" their endorsement. I fully understand the need to raise the money to operate, but there has to be a better way. They claim that they would not sell their name to a lousy third party grading company, but who knows when the dollars are offered. Once you begin to sell your name, you will do anything. It is a shame that some will sell their dreams for small desires.
They actively involve themselves in the politics of the coin business and in doing so, they are forced to "please" the contributors. Take a look at their involvement with ebay. The ANA posts their "rules" and yet has NO AUTHORITY to enforce them. So what is the point? Have they gained that many new members that it is worth being associated with them? As each counterfeit coin is sold on ebay, the ANA looses more and more credibility. Even within their own membership ranks, what is the punishment for breaking the rules? They kick you out. OH MY! There is a noteable dealer in Maryland that runs 2 and 4 page ads each week in CoinWorld that was kicked out of the ANA in 2003 for "breaking" the rules. Did they care? Did they loose any money?
Coin publications accept ads from anyone willing to pay for them. Many of these companies are less than desirable to say the least. There are ads for lousy TPG companies and bad dealers, but does anyone care? With each ad, the publication indirectly supports and condones the activity by these companies. Even the publications that spell out the rules for advertising allow these rules to be broken with no consequence. How many times have you read the rules that grading standards must adhere to BU meaning Brilliant Uncirculated only to find many coins listed as BU=Borderline Uncirculated?
Each time these groups and publications lower their standards to meet the person paying, they in turn lower their own standing. Why should collectors believe anything said by the group? As an example, their are several publications that print "prices" or "values" of coins. Well we all know all too well that for the most part these numbers are fantasy. It creates a basis for new collectors to be fooled, and that is BAD for the hobby.
It seems that each day we have new companies doing everything that they can to take advantage of the new collector. They peddle "junk" and "trash" and the publications embrace their dollars irregardless of whom it hurts.
I see collectors walking the bourse floor with various price guides in hand, and think to myself, they may as well tape a sign to their forhead that says "Take my money please". Why are these publications not focusing on grading standards instead of worthless prices? If education is truly the goal, why do they need to charge us so much? The TPG's offer clubs for our money. Why can't the ANA offer simular services? How about offering a grading course to all members? Certify some dealers around the country to offer these courses. They tout their program in Colorado, but how many participants do they really get?
Promises are made of getting the Smithsonian to create a museum for coins. Well we all know what happened to the last one. They want the Mint to open a museum. Well until the Mint figures out how to make a dollar on that idea, we will not see one. Face it, the U.S. Mint is the largest coin dealer in the world.
Until there are hard and fast rules, this hobby will continue to spiral downhill. We loose more "real" collectors than we gain. Everyone praises the State Quarters and the nickel series as the greatest thing in the hobby. Well folks, I think that it is by far the worst. We allowed these series to create a permanent nickel design, and we are telling 100 million collectors of the State Quarters program that in 2008 they may as well spend their money elsewhere. There will be limited new designs and then they will be permanent with a handful of dead presidents. So why are we praising this?
Most will say "They brought so many to the hobby". While this is true, where will these collectors be once the designs are permanent? Everyone is concerned with today. Well folks, let me clue you in on something. It is our RESPONSIBILITY to think about tomorrow. Who are we to tell the collectors of tomorrow what should be on their coins?
We have many responsibilities, and the one that is most important is to teach. Unfortunately, if it doesn't make them money, many will not offer their time or knowledge. It is hard not to lose faith in the hobby as it grows worse each and every day, but there is a glimmer of hope out there. Small groups are popping up in the community making attempts at improving things. They aren't always easy to find, but if you search them out, you should offer your help. They don't always need money. Some simply need help getting the word out, or volunteers to help teach. We all need to do our part.

Stop the committees and do the work!
Valued Member
Stujoe's Avatar
United States
421 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  8:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Stujoe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by rggoodie

I'm a joiner.
I think it is an illness,
but some one please give a Foreign coin collector one reason to join the ANA other than to belong or to support or "spend money".

This is not a joke post.

I would like someone to address this for those of us that are from the "darkside"




Other than the magazine and the warm fuzzy from supporting the organization, I am not sure. The library is one of the best resources but I am not sure of the feasability for a non-USian. Same with the insurance and, of course, the shows.
Valued Member
Stujoe's Avatar
United States
421 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  8:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Stujoe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Mike

Hi,now that ND has covered the topic of the cutrrent status at ANA and the lack of leadership I find myself with a ballot for an ANA election of officers and absolutely no idea of who to vote for.



It is tough. Mostly it ends up being the same people recycled every year. I sent in my ballot today. With the exception of a couple of votes, I was not that enthused with any of my selections. I try to go with the collector candidates or new blood when I am in doubt or on the fence but that is just me.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  8:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add national dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have still not received a ballot. (Maybe this should tell me something ) At least most of the ANA staff know that I am concerned with the hobby. I just wish that they would stop "thinking" about what to do and just do something.
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rggoodie's Avatar
United States
23528 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  8:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rggoodie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Come on you ANAers
Please answer my question.
I am seeing the strife you are having, and I feel your pain

Is there any reasons for a darksider to join?
rggoodie
aka Richard
"catch em doing something right"
Pillar Of The Community
crystalk64's Avatar
3147 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  9:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add crystalk64 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nope, not at this time! Just an opinion from a 30 year collector of U.S. coins that still sees no reason to belong. If I want a book, I buy it! Other than a library what do they have to offer me the average Joe? I don't need the ANA membership number to show the world I am a somebody because I collect coins and I don't need it to purchase coins and I am sure we wouldn't get discounts because we have a membership so why bother? I guess one would need the "I got to get recognized (newpaper or TV) to prove they actually belong in a specific organization and to do that we would have to set up a table on a court house square or protest to get the media out to take a few photos. Boy, can I name the groups that do that!
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rggoodie's Avatar
United States
23528 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  9:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rggoodie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by crystalk64

Nope, not at this time! Just an opinion from a 30 year collector of U.S. coins that still sees no reason to belong. If I want a book, I buy it! Other than a library what do they have to offer me the average Joe? I don't need the ANA membership number to show the world I am a somebody because I collect coins and I don't need it to purchase coins and I am sure we wouldn't get discounts because we have a membership so why bother? I guess one would need the "I got to get recognized (newpaper or TV) to prove they actually belong in a specific organization and to do that we would have to set up a table on a court house square or protest to get the media out to take a few photos. Boy, can I name the groups that do that!


Thakx Terry
This all made sense
Funny - I feel I get real value and education from the ANS (Australian Numismatic Society) WINS and this forum.

I just couldn't find the reason at present to belong tto yet another group just to have more initials after my name
Richard CCBW (Chief Cook & Bottle Washer)
rggoodie
aka Richard
"catch em doing something right"
Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  9:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add national dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by crystalk64
what do they have to offer me the average Joe?


You bring up a great point. What would you like to see from a numismatic organization? It is not important for members to join, but what if they offered something for all? What makes a organization good for the whole group?
Rest in Peace
Mike's Avatar
United States
2884 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  9:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Stujoe, What Magazine? Am I supposed to be getting a Magazine? I have never gotten a thing from them! Mike[:0] I even paid for two years!!!!1
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Susanlynn9's Avatar
United States
5877 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susanlynn9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mike, you should be getting The Numismatist every month....[:0]

If you want, I can box some up for you and send them.
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Stujoe's Avatar
United States
421 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  9:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Stujoe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Absolutely you should be getting the magazine! It is the most tangible benefit. It is typically a pretty good read.
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rggoodie's Avatar
United States
23528 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2005  9:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rggoodie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As part of my member ship,
In the last year the Australian Numismatic Society has provide me with the following materials

Booklets: A classification of the New South Wales Dumps ( has to do with Holey Dollars)
The Australian Numismatic Society Journal
Australian Numismatic Society report May & December
the constitution
James cook His coins and medals
Past Australian Numismatic Society Journal
3 medals produced by the society
& a great administrator who is active on a forum and always responds to questions and guides you to others if he does not know the answer.

This is the type of thing I would also look for if I were to belong to the ANA
rggoodie
aka Richard
"catch em doing something right"
Edited by rggoodie
06/07/2005 06:51 am
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