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Enter Minerva

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Valued Member
Ętheling's Avatar
United Kingdom
438 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  12:01 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Ętheling to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
...and Domitian (91-96 AD).

Been out to find a coin for someone and whilst I was about it I decided I was going to add another coin to my gods collection. I saw this, I had to have it;


Enter-Minerva


I kinda figured it would be Minerva but I wasn't sure for certain until I got it home. Bearing in mind I've just started with Roman couins so that was a bit of a gamble to take on my part!

I saw the shield and I just thought, I'm sure this is Minerva. How I missed the owl is beyond me but I did! When I got home I examined it properly (first without the book). I saw the war helmet (like Britannia) and I thought the stand looked fairly war like. Minerva is of course the goddess of war and wisdom. And then I saw the owl at her feet, I knew for sure in my own mind as soon as I saw that!

Minerva and her Greek equivalent Athena/Athene were represented by the owl. Minerva's connection with the owl comes from the fact that she was conflated (i.e combined with Athena). Athena and Minerva were technically two different goddesses, one Roman and one Greek. But when the Romans encorporated Greece into their own empire the two deities were remarkably similar, both wise, both warlike defenders of their people, and Roman religion was already based upon Greek anyhow before this. The Romans therefore saw it that Minerva and Athena were one and the same but had been worshipped differently by two different cultures. (Kinda like the Christians and Jews, they both worship the same god but in different ways).

Of course Athena is best remembered from the Athenian Owl Tets, where she is on the obverse and her symbol the owl (for wisdom) is on the reverse. This representation came about because an owl made it's nest in the eves of the big temple to Athena.

Domitian was devoted to Minerva and thus it is no surprise that she turns up on so many of his coins.

Domitian wasn't the worst Emperor of Rome but he had his moments he could be very cruel and was paranoid that everyone hated him and everyone was out to get him. His paranoia led to him taking pre-emptive strike action, which is what made him so hated and in the end what brought him to his doom. Forever afraid of being assasinated he shied away from mushrooms (as Claudius had died from eating poisoned mushrooms), however his father Vespasian once joked at Domitian that it was blades he ought to fear and not mushrooms.

A soothsayer had already predicted the year, month and hour of Domitian's death, and the Emperor grew more nervous as the year got closer, as the month crept closer and as the day arrived and the hour was upon him.

He was right to be worried about 5 o'clock that day as an assasination was awaiting him, when he asked the time he was told it was 6 o'clock (i.e one hour after he should have been topped), Domitian believed it and left the room he had been sealed up in (a room with manymirrors so he could see all round the room andmake sure no one was trying to sneak up on him). Thinking the danger was passed he went for a bath. Unfortunately they'd lied about the time as they were in on the plot, it was just before 5 o'clock.

A man who had been walking around the palace for several days with his arm in a sling feigning injury really had a knife hidden there. He rushed to Domitian and handed him a letter stating that there was a plot to kill him. As the Emperor averted his eyes to read the lteer the assasin struck.

Domitian was stabbed seven times in the stomach, but had continued to try to fight off his attacker until the end.










Pillar of the Community
ageka's Avatar
Belgium
2078 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  12:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ageka to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I love that coin
However they all look that clean after 2000 years I am afraid
they took a bath

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Hercules/athena.html
Pillar of the Community
ageka's Avatar
Belgium
2078 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  12:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ageka to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I guess the owl is because they were goddes of wisdom

http://www.angelfire.com/ill/greekm...gy/Gods.html
Valued Member
Ętheling's Avatar
United Kingdom
438 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  12:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ętheling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cleaned doesn't bother me in the slightest with these, infact I kind of prefer them cleaned. I like to know what I'm getting!

I'vebeen handling some Athenian Owls today, they all have test cuts though. I'm still pondering over whether to buy one. One of them is real nice, without the test cut I would have bought it a year ago. With it I've had to think, still thinking. It is nice though! :D

War deities like Minerva and Mars are always popular on coins, especially for a war-like civilisation like Rome.



Rest in Peace
catman's Avatar
United States
954 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  1:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add catman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ętheling,

Nice Piece. If it needs a home you could send it to me. I have a great place for it..

catman
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ageka's Avatar
Belgium
2078 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  1:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ageka to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Without the test cut you would not know wheather it was a fourree or not right ?
In that case the test cut is a re assurance and a nuisance at the same time
Valued Member
Ętheling's Avatar
United Kingdom
438 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  1:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ętheling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I saw it, I wanted it! (Being an earlier Emperor too gives it that bit more popularity).

Domitian was the last of the 'early' emperors (the writer Suetonius finishes with Domitian and thus he saw him as the last of the traditional emperors of Rome).

I personally think he's more what i'd call the 'second generation' of Emperors. The first generation having ended either with Nero in AD 68, or perhaps you might want to include the very brief reigns of his next three successors, Galba, Otho and Vitellius all of whom reigned in AD 69. Vitellius was eventually murdered in AD 69 and replaced by Vespasian that year starts what i'd call the new generation, quite where this ends though i'd hate to say, either with Domitian or with Commodus/Pertinax etc. and the accession of the Severan Dynasty.

So Domitian is an early emperor but he's not of the line of Augustus, that went with Nero.



Valued Member
Ętheling's Avatar
United Kingdom
438 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  1:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ętheling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by ageka

Without the test cut you would not know wheather it was a fourree or not right ?
In that case the test cut is a re assurance and a nuisance at the same time




Well it's less of a cut and more of a drilled hole! It's about the width of a pencil in diameter and goes about half way into the coin on the reverse, just to the left and slightly above the centre.

Pillar of the Community
ageka's Avatar
Belgium
2078 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  1:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ageka to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The only emperor I know after Nero is Diocletianus because
for some or other reason belgium put him on a 25 ecu goldcoin
in 1989

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletian
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ageka's Avatar
Belgium
2078 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  1:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ageka to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Diocletenianus



Enter-Minerva
Pillar of the Community
ageka's Avatar
Belgium
2078 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  1:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ageka to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
[quote]Originally posted by ageka

Diocletenianus

Enter-Minerva

Second trial only saw a red cross

Rest in Peace
Morgan Fred's Avatar
United States
2684 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  2:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgan Fred to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ętheling, thank you for the historical information and commentary on the Roman coin! I don't know much about the ancients, but you sure made it alive for me. There's also a moral to the story: don't ask other people for the time. They might give it to you...

Valued Member
Ętheling's Avatar
United Kingdom
438 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  4:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ętheling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Too true

I posted this one here rather than the World forum, because I know ancients carry some popularity in the States and I hoped (and was right!) that it'd get more attention.

As I'm sure you could tell I love my history!

Valued Member
Twentycent's Avatar
United States
187 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  6:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Twentycent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow! Nice pics. When someone says ancient, is this what they are talking about with coins? Good to see some of your pictures again.



Jerry
Pillar Of The Community
crystalk64's Avatar
3147 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2005  6:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add crystalk64 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice coin AEtheling! Really should be residing in Indiana though! What are the Athenian Owls priced at over there? I really like some of the ancients but fear my knowledge is not strong enough to buy them. Lots of counterfeits floating around the world and I prefer the REAL McCoy for my money. Thanks for posting the photo of a really beautiful piece of history. Very tempting!
Valued Member
Ętheling's Avatar
United Kingdom
438 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2005  05:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ętheling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Athenian Owl I saw which was a nice looker was priced at £129 (this is with test cut). There were some lower grade ones, nice chunks of silver but the details were very waterworn if you know what I mean. If you could make out the owl on the reverse the obverse looked a bit mashed/fuzzy, and vice versa. Looks like water erosion from being buried underground for a long time (very likely!). These were going at £79.

Best to buy the good piece rather than the culls in my honest opinion.

Ye Twenty Cent these are very much what you call ancient coins. Ancient coins are anything BC, and also anything produced upto AD 500. Antiquity (i.e Ancient history) ends in the 5th century AD. Once you hit 501 and beyond you are then (as far as Western Europe goes) in the Dark Ages and heading towards the early medieval period which starts in the 800-900s depending upon which country you're looking at.

So people referring to coins from 1300 or even 1000 as 'Ancients' are using the term very loosly and incorrectly as far as Western Europe goes. Some areas of the world though were still in their Ancient period at this time.



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