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Roman Republic As Janus

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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2016  8:52 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Received this coin as a gift from my good friend Nate today. Thanks buddy.

Roman Republic
AS
Janiform bust
Prow of ship
ROMA
33mm x 29.4g x 11h
Circa 190 BC

The coin has a thick concrete deposit on the reverse that both Nate and I have worked on. I still have a little ways to go but I hope to be able to reveal more of the reverse in time.



Roman-Republic-As-Janus

Roman-Republic-As-Janus
Before.

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Kamnaskires's Avatar
United States
7066 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2016  9:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kamnaskires to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Always nice to get an ancient gift from a coin buddy. And this is a biggie at 33mm. Good luck with the cleaning.
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Ancientnoob's Avatar
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 Posted 03/25/2016  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ancientnoob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Really glad you like it!!
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lrbguy's Avatar
United States
949 Posts
 Posted 03/26/2016  2:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lrbguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ron,

I normally don't use chemicals on my coins, but for these concrete-like deposits which look like lime, the risk of serious damage from the use of a needle makes me want to soften them up a bit as I go. I have had good luck using a couple of drops of Lime-Away applied directly to the area I will be scraping with the needle. and then scrubbing in the moistened part with light to moderate force. The idea is to penetrate the crust and not the coin, of course. I still would not advocate soaking the coin in the chemical, but if I have not gotten through the crust down to the patina beneath, I don't rinse off the bit of chemical residue either, on the assumption that I will be returning to the work the next day.

Just a couple of thoughts to try if you haven't already.
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 03/26/2016  3:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Been working on it a bit today. I did use some Lime Away applied with a cotton swab and than worked on it with some dental tools. I don't think I'll do any more for the time being anyway.




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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 03/27/2016  6:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Update, decided to work on it a bit more. Here is the finial cleaning.



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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16851 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2016  8:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Trivia time:

This design, with a ship on one side and Janus on the other, was in use for such a long time it entered the Latin vernacular. When we modern Westerners toss a coin to help us make a decision (or merely to gamble), we call out the question, "heads or tails?". The ancient Romans called out "navia aut caput", meaning "ships or heads".
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 03/27/2016  10:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Never heard that before.
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DavidUK's Avatar
United Kingdom
2624 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2016  08:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DavidUK to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I find the republic coins the most attractive of the Roman coins and the AS is particularly attractive and tactile.

Fascinating fact Sap, love obscure facts like that.

This is my only AS, but probably my favourite AE coin in my collection.

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antwerpen2306's Avatar
Belgium
1194 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2016  08:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add antwerpen2306 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
wow , beautiful coin . albert
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 03/28/2016  2:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow! that is a beautiful Semis David.
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lrbguy's Avatar
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 Posted 03/28/2016  6:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lrbguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ron is quite right that David's coin is a semis not an As. Note the "S" as figure of value behind the head of Saturn on the obv.

Here is an As from my collection for the same period as David's semis, but from a different moneyer. It is not as pretty as David's, but it is Janiform like the OP.

Roman-Republic-As-Janus


This is from the later "struck" coins (as opposed to "cast") and bears a vertical "I" figure of value above the head of Janus on obv and above the prow on rev.
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 03/28/2016  6:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Irbguy, I've been trying to pin down a better date on my coin. It also appears to be struck rather than cast and based on the weight it is from late in the series. I guesstimated it to be circa 150 BC. Do you think I'm in the ball park with that date?
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DavidUK's Avatar
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 Posted 03/28/2016  6:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DavidUK to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I love that Janiform bust IRB, nice looking coin.

Forgive my ignorance confusing the AS and the Semis as I understand it a Semis is half an AS, so presumably these AS's are bigger (but the similar reverse design...)
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lrbguy's Avatar
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 Posted 03/29/2016  11:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lrbguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry I couldn't get back to you yesterday, but I was called away. There are some interesting matters here to which your questions call attention.

@echizento

Ron, until your coin has been cleaned far enough to reveal which moneyers marks it contains, you will not be able to get a clear fix on its dating. Allow me to comment first on David's coin, and also mine, to set the pattern and then come back to yours.

@DavidUK
You are correct that the semis is tariffed at half an As. I would be interested in learning the weight and diameter of your coin.

I have made a brightened image of your coin and set it in horizontal mode parallel to mine to point out certain features more easily. This As weighs 38.45 gm, and measures 33mm across. It is also quite thick at 5.2 mm.

Roman-Republic-As-Janus

These pictures were not done to a common scale, so we cannot tell anything about relative coin sizes based upon them.

For these coins the reference of choice is Michael Crawford, Roman Republican Coinage. The Crawford number on my coin is 56/2 which is described as an anonymous bronze As with obverse laureate head of Janus; above, | . The reverse is a prow, r.; above, |. The mint is Rome and dates to "after 211 B.C."

David's coin is from the same series with the following description in Crawford: number 56/3 a Semis with obverse laureate head of Saturn r.; behind, S. The reverse is a prow r.; above, S.

Crawford provides illustrations for a couple of examples of each. The imagery on the As is pretty much as expected, but the obverse bust on the Semis was a bit of a surprise to me. Normally the figure of Saturn is heavily bearded and bears the appearance of age (being the mythic father of Jupiter). However, David's coin appears beardless and quite youthful, and I did not recognize it. However, Crawford illustrates a bearded and beardless visage for Saturn as examples of 56/3, so there should be no doubt about either the authenticity of the coin or its early attribution. These coins are roughly contemporaneous with the transition from the Victoriatus to Denarius in silver from and after 211 BC. They are some of the first coins made according to the sextantal standard, which means 6 asses to the Roman pound (libra). [Crawford's conclusions laid to rest the confusion about that which had arisen from conflicting reports by other scholars who preceded him.]

Note that the vertical stroke mark | on the As is replaced in both positions by an S on the Semis. It should be evident that these are the distinguishing marks of value for each piece. It is the absence of any further symbols, monograms, or altered design features that narrows the attribution of these coins to the earliest period of Republican struck coinage. Subsequent coin producers (moneyers) added details in the empty spaces above and before the prow, often repositioning the marks of value in the process. Crawford has arranged his catalog to give at least a relative chronology for the appearance of the various distinguishing marks of the longs series of moneyers which followed. He groups coins in all metals according to this progression.

This then gets us to the problem with dating your coin, Ron. As I said above, until you know what marks it has, you cannot date your coin. Worse yet, you cannot be guided in your restoration by a known configuration. As you remove the encrustation on your coin, you need to be alert to the possibility of design elements in unusual configurations and locations so that you do not remove what ought to stay. This creates a chicken-and-egg problem, since you can't tell what mark to look for until you see it clearly. If the encrustation were merely an accretion (stuck on) then you could excavate the layers stratigraphically and reveal the design. But in all likelihood, some of the points of coverage have altered the underlying metal, making it harder to recognize when you are cutting into a design feature.
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DavidUK's Avatar
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 Posted 03/29/2016  12:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DavidUK to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good post IRB, very informative... for your info I have 28mm 16.3g in my notes about my coin...
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