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1964 Composition Change: Alternatives Considered

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n9jig's Avatar
United States
996 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2016  12:07 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add n9jig to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Since I was a mere toddler at the time I wasn't aware of the silver to clad changes of the mid 1960's until it was pretty much too late.

I have read tidbits here and there about alternatives considered but cannot locate them now.

I am sure some of you have better info on what was really considered prior to the selection of clad. I thought I had read someplace that the clad composition approximated the weight better than other possibilities and had similar electrical signatures for vending machines but that might have been apocryphal.

Was there regular alloys considered?

Was the 75% copper/25% nickel alloy (as used in the nickel) considered?

Were plated coins considered?

Any other solutions?
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Finn235's Avatar
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6130 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2016  1:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think that weight or electric signature was a concern, the weight difference is enough that most Coinstar machines will reject silver coins. Nothing conducts electricity better than silver (except maybe some rare earth superconductors at like 55 kelvin). I think it was a pure and simple desire to cut costs.

From my understanding, nickel has increased in value on paper, but has actually been falling in value since it was first used in mass-produced coins in the 1800s. Therefore, the copper core might have been cheap enough to warrant the cladding process over making the coin out of solid cupronickel. Maybe.

Curious to know what others have to say!
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Steele's Avatar
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1119 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2016  11:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Steele to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
the weight difference is enough that most Coinstar machines will reject silver coins
coin counters don't work solely on weight; the speed at which they run most sort by size then use electromagnetic resistance to tell if the coin matches. Quote:Coin acceptors do not actually look for the differences between coins but rather compares the coins that are inserted to various characteristics the device is looking for in regards to the identification properties of previously identified coins (usually via a program developed by the device manufacturer). If the inserted coin matches one of the sets of identification characteristics programmed into the device, then a pre-determined signal is output. If the coin inserted does not match any of the pre-determined recognition conditions then the coin will be rejected and returned. how a ryedel works: quote: If the moving coin "looks" or "matches" the electronic signature of the sample coin it is accepted, if it does not, it is simply rejected.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2016  11:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Specific gravity of coinage alloys:
90% silver 10% copper: 10.43
75% copper 25% nickel: 9.94

If a coinage metal is to be debased from 90% silver 10% copper to 75% copper 25% nickel, and the diameter is to be retained, the thickness must be increased by about 5% to retain the weight.

The increased thickness can present problems can present problems with vending machines; differences in electrical conductivity can also present problems.
These may be the reason(s) why the decision was taken to produce a clad coinage, as well as finding an economical way to reduce to cost of producing the new coinage.
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Conder101's Avatar
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17884 Posts
 Posted 10/08/2016  01:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The thing you have to consider is what the coin mechanisms were in 1964 not what they are like today. Telephone systems put in detectors that used the electromagnetic characteristic early on. They were experimenting with it in the 19 teens. But most every old mechanism that I have seen from the old machines were all strictly mechanical, and I know vending machines back in the sixties often would not accept both clad and silver. I've never tested them but I would have my doubts that silver and clad coins have the same electromagnetic properties.
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n9jig's Avatar
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996 Posts
 Posted 10/08/2016  7:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add n9jig to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
According to Wikipedia the silver quarter was 6.25 g and the clad 5.67. The silver dime was 2.5 g and the clad 2.268.

That is a pretty significant weight difference right there so vending machines that used weight may have needed to be adjusted.

How much would a copper-nickel (75/25%) alloy quarter (same allow as the nickel) have weighed it the diameter and thickness was maintained for the dime, quarter and half (and the Ike later)?

While the clad coins have served well, I still think it would have been easier and cheaper to use an alloy across the board, then there would only have been 2 alloys for the entire range of coins, bronze for the penny and copper-nickel for the rest.
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Conder101's Avatar
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17884 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2016  1:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How much would a copper-nickel (75/25%) alloy quarter (same allow as the nickel) have weighed it the diameter and thickness was maintained for the dime, quarter and half (and the Ike later)?

Almost exactly the same. Copper and nickel have almost the same density so different % compositions of copper and nickel have almost no effect on the weight.

Yes it would have been easier, but the clad composition was also an anti-counterfeiting measure. Clad strip/planchets would be pretty much impossible for counterfeiters to make. The ingots that would be rolled out to make the strip were bonded together using explosives. Get the shaped charges wrong and you don't get good even bonding.
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