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Counterfeit Scottish Halfpenny Condor Token

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Arkie's Avatar
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 Posted 01/19/2017  10:26 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Arkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
This appears to be 50a, a counterfeit Hutchinson's token from Edinburgh according to p. 425 in the 1910 version of the D&H catalogue provided by Spruett001. Is this correct? Does it have any value? What does it mean to counterfeit a private token?



Counterfeit-Scottish-Halfpenny-Condor-Token



Counterfeit-Scottish-Halfpenny-Condor-Token
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spru's Avatar
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 Posted 01/20/2017  12:01 am  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not sure how many responses you'll get, so I'll say your attribution seems correct depending on the edge. Considering its condition, it is probably a (near) contemporary counterfeit and a very old token.

I'm not sure of the market for such a piece. There are many Conder enthusiast and they may be interested in contemporary counterfeits as well considering their part in the overall history.

If you have any more, please do keep sharing.
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 Posted 01/20/2017  12:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Arkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No response to my philosophical question? Is it possible to counterfeit a private token? What makes the original better than yours? As long as you don't state that someone else will give "ha'penny's value" for your coin, has any harm been done to anyone?
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 Posted 01/20/2017  12:26 am  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I guess the only reason the "counterfeit" category exists is because these were actually used as currency and were not strictly "tokens" as we would call today.

I think it's highly likely that these counterfeits were used extensively in real transactions (even with knowledge on both sides that it was not an original issue). It's interesting because your version has a completely different reverse which almost makes it a unique genuine token and not a copy.

I'm no expert, but I do understand your question and it may be one of those that remains solely philosophical.
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 Posted 01/20/2017  12:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Arkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can you guess how I knew to look in Scotland first?
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 Posted 01/20/2017  04:18 am  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't really like this game but I'll play and is this close?


Quote:
Nemo me impune lacessit was the Latin motto of the Royal Stuart dynasty of Scotland from at least the reign of James VI when it appeared on the reverse side of merk coins minted in 1578 and 1580. It is the adopted motto of the Order of the Thistle and of three Scottish regiments of the British Army. The motto also appears, in conjunction with the collar of the Order of the Thistle, in later versions of the Royal coat of arms of the Kingdom of Scotland and subsequently in the version of the Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom used in Scotland. It means No one "cuts" (attacks/assails) me with impunity, and has been loosely rendered in Scots as Wha daur meddle wi me? (in Scottish Gaelic Cha togar m' fhearg gun dìoladh). It is also alternatively translated into English as No one can harm me unpunished.


That's the only thing I can come up with right now.
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Edited by spru
01/20/2017 04:22 am
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 Posted 01/20/2017  08:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Can you guess how I knew to look in Scotland first?

Well, aside from the Scottish motto mentioned above, there's also the Scottish cross of St Andrew the guy (who is presumably meant to be St Andrew) is holding, as well as the thistle flowers to either side.

Quote:
No response to my philosophical question? Is it possible to counterfeit a private token? What makes the original better than yours?

The answer to this is, "Of course". Just like in more modern times, it's possible to counterfeit a Gucci handbag or Microsoft licensed product. Counterfeiting, in this broader sense, is making an imitation of something valuable and attempting to pass that imitation off as genuine to people who had no reason to suspect the item was counterfeit.

Now, private tokens were presumably not covered by government anti-forgery laws, as the coins had no government standing. So, somebody caught issuing counterfeit tokens might be found guilty of fraud and fined, but wouldn't be hung for forging and uttering.

Eventually, laws were passed prohibiting the issuance of tokens of any kind, except under certain strict circumstances. Then, continuing to issue tokens would have been a more serious crime.

Quote:
As long as you don't state that someone else will give "ha'penny's value" for your coin, has any harm been done to anyone?

The "harm" happens when someone tries to cash in on the coin, only to find that there isn't anyone who will actually trade you a shilling for 24 of them. Gresham's Law then takes hold: the worthless tokens get circulated and circulated, if the holders of such pieces can find a sucker to take them, while the "fair dinkums" and genuine regal coins get hoarded.

I don't believe the "innocent medal-maker defence" ever carried much weight. Evasion-makers - people whose "medals" bore a suspiciously similar design to genuine coins of the realm - were rarely let off or escaped punishment when they tried this defence.
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 Posted 01/20/2017  12:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Arkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes and yes. I was familiar with the motto, but the St. Andrews cross was the first clue for me. Didn't know that the motto was associated with the Stuarts, though -- that could have made things a little dicey with the powers that be. Didn't notice the thistles.
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 Posted 01/20/2017  1:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Arkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sap, I appreciate your response to the significance of the counterfeit nature of this token. You state


Quote:
The "harm" happens when someone tries to cash in on the coin, only to find that there isn't anyone who will actually trade you a shilling for 24 of them.


I don't think there were many shillings to trade for ha'pennies. Shillings were minted in 1758, 1763 [apparently rare], 1787, and 1798 [extremely rare]. Nor were they produced annually until after Waterloo. Sixpence were produced 1758, 1787, and then after Waterloo. The first year copper pence were produced in Britain was 1797. Copper ha'pennies were produced in 1758, 1770-75, 1799, and 1806-07.

There was not enough coinage circulating. Here people were minting ha'penny-sized tokens of copper. Some were "authentic," some were "counterfeit." It seems like a public service to me. I don't know a lot about the government's view of Condor tokens, but the number and variety produced seems to indicate recognition that a public need was being met.

I have an American hard times token matching the style of my avatar. The government said that token manufacturers could not state their tokens were "cents", so the manufacturers used a commonly known patriotic statement -- millions for defense, but NOT ONE CENT for tribute -- and placed it on their tokens. These tokens passed as cents, and contained as much copper as government-issued cents. When the supply of government coinage increased, the mintage of tokens dried up.

Under these circumstances, I do not perceive any real distinction between an "authentic" and "counterfeit" token. Now if the counterfeit token was not contemporary, and authentic tokens were being collected, that is an entirely different matter.
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