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Daily Running Post Of Each E Clashed Dollars

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matttheriley's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2017  12:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matttheriley to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice! Do you have a link to your registry set?
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twohawks's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2017  12:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To View my registry set you have to be a member of the Society of Silver Dollar Collectors or SSDC NOTE: the SSDC is a federally recognized Non Profit group. I am on the board of directors, in the capacity of membership and renewals. Currently my set has a point value of 8,421 with the top point value attainable being (8,421) The second finest set has 7,868 points and is by far a great accomplish!
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smoke1439's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2017  09:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add smoke1439 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the lesson twohawks!
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twohawks's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2017  10:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
DAY 3 / Coin 3 of the Clashing!

Known Mint State population in all 3 grading companies, and in all 4 sub-types varieties is less than 10 total and non being better than MS-63 with a total MS-63 population of 3 coins.

To keep with the next die state within the 1891 O VAM-1a group, we have the 1891 O VAM-1a4. The progression of this E clashed dollar runs out of order as far as how the VAM numbers run due to the timing of the discovery coins. As Leroy Van Allen has been sent coins over the years and sub-types where or are added, past designations are left to what they where given. The main reason for this is that grading companies will have variety certified given types "in some cases for years" and the collecting community is comfortable with a given number or type designation.

The 1891 O VAM-1a4 is the second stage of this massive clashed coin. The main difference between the VAM-1a1 and the VAM-1a4 is.
The VAM-1a4 is a post polishing of the die pair to try and clean up the clash. This break down of the dies is proven by the heavy polishing lines in front of the forehead of Ms. Liberty, where the wreath clashing in the field was attempted to be removed! As well as on the reveres you will notice a large die gouge between the T and A of STATES that is not present on the VAM-1a1 photos from yesterday.



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smoke1439's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2017  7:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add smoke1439 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Absolutely Gorgeous!

I am intrigued with the VAM's, but have done very little research. I have purchased the catalog, so this thread may push me over the edge.
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twohawks's Avatar
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 Posted 01/26/2017  11:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Day 4 brings us the 1891 O VAM-1a2. This is the 3rd part of the die progression of this variety. This is the point where the fields that had the nose and eye clash on the reverse die start to collapse and pushes part of the die field up. This starts off where the die starts to raise up, and is seen on the coin as a depression in the fields at the base of the lower intersection section of the 2nd leave cluster in the field. In later VAM-1a2 coins this field collapse becomes complete die failure and a bump of metal is viewed in the field. "Keep in mind that any raised surfaces seen on any coin are in the die" This is to state that a "gouge or break" could be viewed as a relief in the die, and are opposite of what is seen on a finished coin.



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Dual-brain's Avatar
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 Posted 01/26/2017  9:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dual-brain to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have one of these '91-O's!

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twohawks's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2017  10:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Day 5 brings us to the terminal die state of the 1891 O VAM-1a3. At this stage in the die progression the reverse die has the major bump where the die has fully collapsed and has a full break on top of the collapsed section, as well as a radial die break around UNITED. This die stage is rare in problem free AU grades, with AU-55 being top pop with 1 coin.



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twodsonegf's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2017  12:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twodsonegf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was waiting for that one... as well as a few others. That break is awesome!
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Cascade's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2017  2:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What, no MS 1A3 Russ?

The 1A3 is so cool!
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dave700x's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2017  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This progression makes we wonder if the reverse die may have been improperly annealed and somewhat soft.
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twohawks's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2017  11:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will spell out the production of coin dies or Dollar Dies, and everyone can make their or come up with their own conclusions tomarrow. But the dies had to have had "softer spots", and that would be in part from the heat treating of the dies.
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twohawks's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2017  11:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK This is where metallurgy, in the minting process really comes into play

The dies manufactured by the US mint where produced with tool steel, but the grade or exact type I don't know with any real certainty.

What we are sure about is the dynamics in the minting process. We know that working hubs where manufactured, and the working hubs where hammered into the working die blanks to create the working dies. When you take steel or any metal and heat it up an hammer it into an object, its commonly referred to as "Forging". In this process one is compressing the metals molecules, making the metal denser and harder "this is somethings referred to as Work Hardening".

Like a hammer hitting a nail, the hammer will drive in a softer steel nail. But if you take 2 hammers and hit them together with force, the hammer faces can and do chip and sometimes will shatter. "Don't try this at home".

That's where heat treating come into play. Heat treating is where dies are placed into an oven and heated to a given temperature for a given amount of time. In this process the metal is allowed to expand, effectively relieving the stresses of the compression of the forging process.

Take a balloon and blow it up. If you put the balloon in a refrigerator you will see that it will shrink, pull it out it will expand. As something is cooled the molecules slow down, warm them up and they become excited. If you take that balloon and put it into and out of the refrigerator a dozen times you will see that the balloon it's self will of changed well beyond what a balloon looks like when you just let the air out. Similar changes happen with everything, sit in the Sun for a few years and look at you skin

Heat treating is not the same as a hardening process. If someone wished to harden a piece of tool steel, you would heat it up to be "Red Hot" and flash cool it with oil or water or sometimes air cooling is done. When you heat treat something the temperature is normally set at around 600 to 800 degrees and the time in the oven is measured in hours.

One would think that if you have 50 dies in an oven for 4 hours or so, every die would receive the same relief effect. That thought is "Not True". Even today when aircraft parts are heat treated and certified their location in the oven or position is noted in the certification.

My personal thought is that some dies and parts of some dies where over heated, by the position in the oven they where in at the time of heat treating. The reverse die of the 1891 VAM-19 is a great example of a die collapsing into it's self.

As far as the E Clashed set, the 1891 O VAM 1a group is a prime example of opposing dies having a Defined difference in hardness.

The reveres die has had the opposing die clash so hard and deep that the "BERT" looks to be part of design in the relief. Yet the obverse die, while having the lower wreath clashing the depth of this counter class is far less dramatic.

Leaving us with a few solid facts!

1) Die's had different hardness's
2) Based on the number of 1878 dies that where breaking apart, stress relieving the dies was done to enhance die life.

As fare as Annealing the die's, I spoke with Leroy Van Allen about this vary thing a few weeks ago. Annealing is a process where the dies heated up and allowed to cool. So the metal is a little softer, heat treating the dies is almost the same thing. It comes down to the time in the oven and the temperature.
Edited by twohawks
01/28/2017 11:38 am
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twohawks's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2017  12:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Day 6 of the E Clash coins.

1880 P VAM-33a, this is a very faint E Clash and I don't believe that any coin will be found that could be confirmed with the E clash at grades of AU-50 or below. This E Clashed coin is believed to be the most difficult to obtain do to several reasons. Primarily because its such a weak E clash the letter transfer would worn down in normal striking of other coins. Currently less than 15 examples are known with only 3 being in MS grades.

The primary pick up point is the gouge running between the E and D of UNITED. Once you find that, the coin must be the clashed version, and then it must be an early die state.

On my coin the backbone and the center trumpet of the E can be seen as well as a small part of the "B" from LIBERTY can be viewed spiking out of the wreath leaf.



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Edited by twohawks
01/28/2017 12:10 pm
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twodsonegf's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2017  5:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twodsonegf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This one sure is tough. I've managed to find a couple really nice 1880 V39As, but not a single V33A.
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