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To participate in the forum you must log in or register. | Author |
 Replies: 15 / Views: 3,447 |
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Valued Member
United States
379 Posts |
Ok, I admit it, if it comes to a really special coin I am more than willing to pay more than spot price... especially if it is graded, proof, and in a 70 condition. for example, I recently paid about double spot for a year 2000 solid 9999 gold one ounce coin, NGC graded as a PF (PROOF) 70, the total NGC population was 4 in that grade. And I think I got a good price, but whether that bears out depends on the future. Now lets talk about modern graded silver coins. While the current spot price is around $17 an ounce, it is not unusual for me to see prices one ounce silver coins which cost ten to twenty times or more the price of spot. example... a modern one ounce silver coin selling for $300-600 or more. and while most of these coins are graded, they are often not even proof. anybody got any ideas about this? these are often coins with a high population in their grade as well. Is it because there is a common perception that silver is so undervalued? Any thoughts would be appreciated. here is an example... http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-Austra...AOSwq~tZR0LLI chose this one because it is not your typical speculative coin listing with a "make offer" offer. While it IS a 70 coin, it is not a PR (proof coin) which this series offers as well as in MS. it does have a low population (81), but does this justify a roughly 2000% markup, instead of a 100% markup that my gold coin had, and mine had a population of only 4. But I realize there are exceptions... for instance, there are TWO 1987 gold 15 oz isle of man angel coins on ebay right now. With a total population of 150, graded or not, I can understand and agree with a seller who says it is "extremely rare". But I consider this a freak occurrence to have two of them on ebay at the same time, these coins usually do not come up for years at a time. One of them is graded a MS69, while the other one is not graded at all. I do not think that many people will buy a $26,000 coin without knowing what it grades at beforehand, so it has been on there for a loooong time. I'd like to get something else off of my chest... when I see a coin advertised as "EXTREMELY RARE", only to find out that were thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of them in identical condition, grade, etc. on ebay I often see "extremely rare" coins... and several other listings for these same "rare" coins (same grade, year, condition) are on ebay at the same time. I sometimes sell a coin or two, but even with a population of less than ten, the most dramatic I will get is to describe it as "very scarce"... I never use the word "extremely" in any case. I guess it comes down to what the word "rare" means to a person. The maddening thing is that some sellers will say it has a low population without bothering to say what the population is, so I have to look it up myself (no big deal, I do it anyways on all graded coins). I hope I have not made any of you sellers mad out there that do, that is not my intention and I realize you have the right to say what you want about your coin(s), as long as the description is accurate. I'm not putting you down, just saying that my way is personal with me and I am definitely not saying that I am right, so please, no flaming me when none is intended on my end... I have bought a lot of coins off of ebay, so I am a "dealer friendly" type of guy, so please do not get me wrong here. I have got many great deals from ebay dealers, many of whom were willing to work with me on the price even tho there was no "make offer" option on their listing. mike Edited by 4504
09/22/2017 11:34 am
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Valued Member
United States
467 Posts |
I an avid collector of world silver bullion, although generally never proof (although I make an exception for Libertads)-- always just regular bullion.
In most cases I would never pay several times bullion value for a graded example. I just try to buy them at a couple dollars over spot in raw form as soon as they are released. As Debrajc mentioned in another thread-- there is something like 25 or 30 new bullion series that started in 2017 alone.
However, bullion collecting has become numismatics (at least to a great many people), which is probably why there are 30 new series this year.
If it is a key coin, I would definitely pay well in excess of bullion value. I have a 2005 Somalia Elephant MS-70. I would have no problem selling that immediately at at least 10 times the bullion value, maybe more. If I were to send some of my other key bullion series dates off to be graded, I am sure I could sell them easily.
But I know where you are coming from-- I would never send any normal or semi-key bullion item to be graded. Too many examples of most and in most cases-- they are all going to relatively high grade.
And there are always sellers that just price their stuff too high. That coin in your link-- in my opinion-- is very unlikely to find a buyer at that price. I am not saying the buyer is wrong or that they don't deserve that price or should not love their coin. In no way am I criticizing their item/sale. I am only saying I would be surprised if it sold for that amount.
To answer your question though, I do not believe the high price on graded bullion is because people believe silver to be undervalued. I believe it is because even in bullion, there are key and semi-key coins and coins that are very popular with collectors. And to a slightly less degree, people often try to over price their items regardless of the category.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2023 Posts |
Even among US commemoratives (which are not bullion but the same pricing issues apply), there are examples where a PR69 will go for around $50 while a PR70 can go up to $600 or more. Example: http://www.PCGScoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/9693 The reason for this seems to be populations for the grades. At PCGS, this one has 3163 graded 69 and only 75 graded 70. With so few 70s on the market, it's not too surprising that they will command a premium among those who collect only 70s. That said, there is some debate, especially among modern commemoratives and bullion, over whether anyone can reasonably see the differences between 69 and 70, including the graders themselves who have only a limited amount of time to make such a determination. Add to that, sometimes a 70 doesn't remain a 70 once it's been slabbed -- at least, it doesn't always retain its premium. About a month ago, I bought a silver 1996 Smithsonian PR70 that had smudges and spots (one quite visible to the naked eye) that destroyed any premium inherent in it being graded 70 at one time. I returned it for a refund (that went smoothly), but now I see the same coin listed at closer to its alleged PR70 price (I bought it at half that). The giant spot is still there. Go figure. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1051 Posts |
P.T. Barnum at work. That perfect "70" Dragon has a very visible milk spot on the reverse, as well as at least one on the obverse LOL TPG grading is certainly justified on true, scarce collector coins (or business strikes of exceptionally high grade), but the perpetual grading of ultra-common, inherently high grade bullion coins is laughable, IMO. Take a 'perfect 70' bullion coin to a silver buyer and see what he offers, versus what he offers for the 20 ounces of silver you could have bought at a buck over spot for the same $370. Then, triple the theoretical price of silver and see the effect intensify further. $0.02 |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
While it IS a 70 coin, it is not a PR (proof coin) That's actually almost always a positive for the coin. Proofs are expected to be made better. Quote:
Take a 'perfect 70' bullion coin to a silver buyer and see what he offers, versus what he offers for the 20 ounces of silver you could have bought at a buck over spot for the same $370. And when that silver buyer offers you the same for old silver because they're just a silver bullion buyer then what? It's silly to say to judge numismatics by having them go to a bullion buyer |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1051 Posts |
Quote:
And when that silver buyer offers you the same for old silver because they're just a silver bullion buyer then what? It's silly to say to judge numismatics by having them go to a bullion buyer Take the milk-spotted "70" to a numismatics dealer then, see what he offers you and compare it to the $370 purchase price if you prefer. Even if the silver buyer would only pay 90% of spot for your 20 oz of silver, that would still be in excess of $300. I'd love to see what a dealer would offer on the Dragon, especially with the impairments. You could also just buy an NCG "70" for $199. If anyone thinks a PCGS 70 justifies $170 more than an NGC 70, it just further illustrates the ridiculousness of grading "perfect" bullion coins. Either perfect is perfect regardless of TPG, or it's a racket. |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
Take the milk-spotted "70" to a numismatics dealer then, see what he offers you and compare it to the $370 purchase price if you prefer. Even if the silver buyer would only pay 90% of spot for your 20 oz of silver, that would still be in excess of $300. I'd love to see what a dealer would offer on the Dragon, especially with the impairments. There's no reason to be comparing bullion to numismatics for sale prices. Apples and oranges. Quote:You could also just buy an NCG "70" for $199. If anyone thinks a PCGS 70 justifies $170 more than an NGC 70, it just further illustrates the ridiculousness of grading "perfect" bullion coins. Either perfect is perfect regardless of TPG, or it's a racket. PCGS ones do generally go for more and the strongly preferred one in the Australian market. How much more I'd have to look up but no the market does not treat all grading services equally. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1657 Posts |
Quote:
anybody got any ideas about this? Yes. It's just mass produced novelty bullion. Slabbing it is a marketing gimmick. If PT Barnum was alive, he'd be selling these. |
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Valued Member
 United States
379 Posts |
thanks all for the replies, they were eye openers for sure, but I think there was common ground that it is PT Barnum tactics to grade mass produced bullion... "step right up folks, here we have here is an EXTREMELY RARE and GRADED coin that had a mintage of only 500,000 total! If you cannot handle that, I have a magic elixir which cures all ails for just $1 a bottle, that's right folks, just one dollar a bottle! (get away from me boy, ya bother me...). seriously speaking, I have another mystery. I am constantly being driven towards madness in the Coin World, and here is just another example of why I am talking more to myself these days and have the VA calling me up every month to see if I have any thoughts of harming myself... altho I am partial to the 2000 Australia lunar series 1, I was willing to consider the 2012 Australilia lunar series 2, if I felt it was the right price and a proof coin. yes, I know, there are somce MS coins that put some of their proof brother coins to shame, I should know because I have a few. that being said, I decided not to pay any more of my medical bills, which I consider an ill-advised investment (some may consider them a liability), especially when they have already been paid over 3/4 of the bill by my insurance. You see, I am a T.W.I.P. (take what insurance pays) kind of guy, the rest is just blood-sucking greed from hospitals and doctors and I am done with paying them the considerable balances. what, at my age (62), I am going to get a 30 year mortgage to buy a home? to me, that is being a bit optimistic. It will wreck my credit? at my age, I am not that concerned about it. my new attitude on my already limited "portfolio" has freed up some cash so that I may pursue my coin collecting, which I consider infinitely more fun than paying blood-sucking greedy doctor bills, who have already got more than they deserved. for example, I JUST picked up this proof 2012P series 2 ( I deviated from the 2000 series one because I did not have this one and the price seemed right) silver kilo Australia dragon, NGC PR-68. have a look... http://www.greatcollections.com/Coi...-ASW-3215-ozok, now about the population and grade, right? these came in both MS and PR (mint state and proof) variations. here is the NGC MS populations for 2012... 1 in 65, 1 in 67, 9 in 68, 99 in 69, and 63 in 70, for a total NGC population of 173 in MS. here it is... https://www.NGCcoin.com/census/worl.../sc-362/s30/my question is WHY THE HECK DOES NGC LISTS THESE AS 2012P (as in proof, or does the "P" stand for Perth Mint) ok, here they are in PF (proof)... (if it shows differently, just click on the PR upper right corner) https://www.NGCcoin.com/census/worl.../sc-362/s30/2 in a 68, 8 in a 69, for a total NGC population of 10 (vs. 173 in MS). there were NO kilo proofs in a 70 for 2012. (at least not yet) I paid $925, which I consider a good price, consider on ebay the cheapest graded kilo dragon I was able to find was a milkspot-infested example for $1,500, with the rest in either in proof or MS going for up to 3-4 thousand and more. so, that is my experience with this particular buy, I am a writer by trade and just trying to amuse a few of you folks with my ramblings... so did I burn myself or what? your scorn is as welcome as your praise. mike Edited by 4504
09/25/2017 12:47 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts |
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
I decided not to pay any more of my medical bills, which I consider an ill-advised investment (some may consider them a liability) Bills aren't an investment, they're a requirement and an obligation. Paying them is the right thing to do. People like you not paying them is why honest people get charged more to make up for it. |
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Valued Member
United States
379 Posts |
baseball21, I would normally agree with you, but my private (not midicare) paid them more than they deserved. the thing is that you do not know the backstory... I went to two private hospitals who could not fix the problem... ended up with 5 visits to these worthless hospitals with NO EFFECT ON MY PROBLEM... IT WAS JUST A WASTE OF TIME AND INCOMPENTENCY on the part of the hospitals. I even begged one hospital to admit me, because I was literally dying from loss of blood from my nose, which coagulated in my throat, making it difficult to even breathe. The doctor said "WE DON'T ADMIT NOSEBLEEDS"... even tho the obviousness of blood on and in me and in my throat and stool WAS A BIG PROBLEM. I tried, while choking on my own blood in my throat, to explain that I never had a nosebleed in my life, even as a child.
finally, my brother took me to the V.A. hospital... they took one look at me and some quick tests and immediately admitted me, where I got much better after some COMPETENT DOCTORS AND CARE took over my situation.
so, I guess which is to say, unless you have been in my shoes, and refuse to pay extra over what my good insurance already overpaid to incompetent doctors/hospitals, that you do not know where I am coming from.
Removed inappropriate language.
mike
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Valued Member
United States
379 Posts |
baseball, you sound like the ambulance company who took me to the worthless hospitals. I protested receiving a $2,200 bill, of which my insurance paid $1,800, for a 44 mile ride, with no care in the ambulance, when I protested the amount I was responsible for, the letter I got back is because I got charged so much was for the PEOPLE WHO DID NOT PAY ANYTHING!
Foul and inappropriate language is not accepted on this forum. The language has been removed. Do not use this type of language again.
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Valued Member
United States
379 Posts |
Enjoy your vacation. See you in a couple weeks, but don't come back if you're not prepared to be civil.
Edited by 4504
09/25/2017 11:29 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
More to do with the premium per coin, than the premium per bullion value IN the coin.
Generally speaking, silver coins are more affordable than gold coins.
Bigger demand means that they can support a higher premium per bullion value.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1051 Posts |
 PS - People of solid moral character pay their bills and uphold their responsibilities. |
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Replies: 15 / Views: 3,447 |
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Posted 09/22/2017 12:59 pm
