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 Replies: 9 / Views: 1,636 |
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Valued Member
United States
88 Posts |
As some know, I recently re-entered collecting again after being nearly dormant for 2-3 decades.
From the time I started at about 5-1/2 years old, to me, saying the word "proof coin" meant you were referring to the ultimate in quality and value. (I am not, of course, referring to proof coins that found their way into circulation....rather, proof coins that maintained their strike states.)
Yesterday, I was looking at the values of silver 3-cent coins in the PCGS price list. In particular, I was looking at the 1883 coin. The value of an MS-67 is $25000. But the value of a PR-67 is only $1050 (with Cameo being worth $1250 and a Deep Cameo worth $15000).
Please explain why the MS of the same grade as the proof is worth so much more.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9395 Posts |
I would guess that there are more proof-67 coins around. There are a lot of coins where the good MS grades are worth more than proofs (seated dollars, for example).
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4618 Posts |
It looks like it's almost impossible to find a 1867 3 cent silver coin in MS-65 or above. The survival estimate is only 15 of the 4000 coins minted. The proof is much easier to find (ha ha, easy) with PR-65 or greater survival estimates of 225 coins of the 625 struck. I'm sure that it's due to collectors saving the proofs from damage. Where the business strikes didn't survive.
It's just a matter of rarity in grade.
ANA ID: 3203813 - CONECA ID: N-5637 Clean a coin that may be worth collecting? Please DON'T! When in doubt, leave it dirty!! 
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
12477 Posts |
 Also, mint sets did not exist for collectors to have MS coins directly and these weren't hoarded, as far as I know. It's all about survival rate and grade rarity. Some coins, like Morgans, were found in hoards in MS state that then brought the value down. Some coins circulated too heavily (and were not worth hoarding) to allow many MS examples to survive. In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020
In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020
In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
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Moderator
United States
56855 Posts |
Keep in mind that proofs are meant to be "perfect" and mint state coins are not.Proof coins are handled with "kid gloves" and business strike coins are dumped in bins on top of one another,so finding a high grade business struck coin is a bit more difficult. John1  |
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Valued Member
 United States
88 Posts |
I guess, for me (and it is apparently only my personal preference), I want the very best-looking coin in my collection (speaking of natural state, not cleaned, etc).
If we were not talking about 67's, but were talking about Good vs Fine, and there were only 200 known Good and 10000 fine, I could care less about the Good ones. I am taking the fine ones every time.
In the case of the 1883 3-cent piece, even PF-68+ is worth less ($8500) than an MS-65 ($9500). I get the idea of rarity for one year/mint vs a different year/mint which is mostly by mintage before condition, but I personally have no interest in collecting a lower grade over a higher one when they are in the same Year/mint (with no error/variety differences).
What about you guys? If someone were offering you one or the other for your collection (set aside getting it with the idea of resale), which one would YOU choose?
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
Proof coins are not intended for circulation, although a tiny proportion of each proof issue actually does find it's way into circulation. The result is that proof coins are far more often found in 65 or above grades.
On the other hand, business strikes are all intended for circulation, and so very few are kept immediately after release for the Mint, to retain a 65 grade or higher. Most often, business strikes exhibit bag marking, which prevents grading above 64.
The result of these two sets of circumstances together, will result in business strikes in 67 or higher, being much rarer than the equivalent proof with a grade of 67 or higher.
This is especially so, for coins dated before the mid 1960's, when the hobby of coin collecting became a much more popular past time.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
I only want a proof coin to complete a collection. Otherwise I have no interest in them at all.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Something you must consider with the silver three after 1862 all silver coins were being hoarded. The mint saw no reason to make a lot of coins that would only go straight into hoards. They did still make business strike coins each year under the theory that they didn't want to create "rarities" (there weren't many collectors at the time so a mintage of a few thousand was thought to be enough to prevent them from being rarities), but they did not release them into circulation. Most of these coins were still in the Mint when the series was discontinued in 1873 and they were melted down.
So how did the few business strike coins known leave the mint? Back then there were not a lot of collectors and most of them would get their coins directly from the mint each year. Usually they would buy proof coins which could be had for face value plus a few cents "proofing charge" plus postage. If the supply of proofs was exhausted, or if the collector didn't want to pay the proofing charge they could get business strike examples for face value plus postage. That is most likely how the business strike post 1862 silver trimes left the mint, and why they are so rare today.
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Valued Member
United States
88 Posts |
Thanks for the info Gary! I makes a lot of sense that the idea of a complete collection (including proofs or not) id s very different animal with the silver trimes.
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Replies: 9 / Views: 1,636 |
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Posted 11/17/2019 12:49 am
