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Price Of Silver And The Lack Of Availability

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Rest in Peace
biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2008  12:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
kitco
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nod2003's Avatar
United States
3294 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2008  09:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nod2003 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quick question, are paper silver futures able to demand physical silver for their paper at a time in the future? IE if you buy December silver futures, will physical silver be delivered in December or will you never see any metal at all?
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SpringCypress's Avatar
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666 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2008  09:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SpringCypress to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Don't forget that when the Dow was dropping like a rock recently, mass quantities of 'paper' silver futures were being sold to pay for stock market margin calls, which naturally lowered the 'spot' price.


I think this is pretty much true across the commodities board. Look at the price of oil (I'm probably the only one on here that's upset about that price drop). Artificial demand was being created by futures contracts. Rock the boat even a little bit and you can plan on it sinking.
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biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2008  11:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
quick question, are paper silver futures able to demand physical silver for their paper at a time in the future? IE if you buy December silver futures, will physical silver be delivered in December or will you never see any metal at all?


Short answer: You will only see metal if you ask for it. It will be relatively low grade ugly bars of roughly 1000 ounces, about the size of a loaf of bread. No one is going to show up one day and ask where you want a bunch of silver dumped unless you arrange for it.

Briefly, futures are all paper. The mine agrees to sell at today's price plus contango, which is the cost of storing until the future date, plus the interest they would earn if they took the money today. They're guaranteed a price, and are being paid storage even though they don't have the silver mined yet.

The end user, say Kodak, locks in at today's price, pays storage fees rather than having it kick around, and gives up the interest rather than have their money tied up for months. They can then plan what they will charge for their film (or jewelry) without having to stockpile silver for months.

The mine may want to sell or Kodak want to buy when the other end is not in the market. So the mine sells a contract and a speculator buys it, hoping that the price of silver goes up and he can sell it for more when Kodak or whoever wants it.

Anyone with sufficient credit can buy or sell a contract. If you want to sell 5000 ounces of silver, you can offer a contract, and hope to be able to accumulate that much before the due date. Obviously, short of a disaster, this will not be a problem for the mine. It might be for, say, a coin dealer.

Whoever holds the paper contract when it matures has the option of taking physical delivery, and there is usually silver in the system for this purpose. Most of the contracts are only speculators, tho, with little physical delivery taking place.

Where the spot price and physicals come into play is when those who are normally speculators trading paper decide they want silver, like the Hunt brothers did in 1979-80.

When their contracts were up, they asked for silver. No one expected this, and while the mines were making enough for Kodak, and everyone knew roughly the quantities involved, suddenly there is a demand for delivery of hundreds of thousands of silver that aren't there. So dealers who agreed to paper contracts selling silver now have to pay whatever price is necessary to get the silver to fill their commitments.

For a short period, they can borrow from the trading stockpile, but they have to replace it. When this happens month after month, the spot price keeps rising. Same as if a dealer likes to keep $1000 inventory of silver coins and more people want to buy than sell, he has to raise his buy price to maintain his inventory, and/or his sell price to reduce demand.
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snowman's Avatar
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1840 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2008  3:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add snowman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm surprised that no one has cited the resurgence of the US dollar yet. After all, spot prices are given in US dollars. Since the dollar bottomed out over the summer, it has rebounded about 15-20% against the major currencies. Now I can afford to shop MA-Shops again!
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KurtS's Avatar
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5318 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2008  3:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I found Biggfredd's writeup of the paper silver market interesting.
In far smaller terms, such as with coin dealers, I can see all this buying/selling affecting short-term availability. There will always be a different demand (and pricing) for collector bullion (such as Maple Leafs).
On the other end, I've seen people come into shops and buy 100 oz. bars for a small margin over spot, and when they come to sell only a small margin applies. I'm talking bullion here--ASEs and Maple Leafs are different.
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biggfredd's Avatar
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 Posted 10/20/2008  4:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It all depends on the the market du jour. If the financial writers tell people thy should take physical delivery of Engelhard bars, that's what everyone will want, and you can't sell them JMs or Sunshines. We would buy a lot of "pig" bars because other dealers wouldn't.

One thing to ask yourself about the investment advice you read in the paper is huh these people are working for a paycheck if they actually knew what they were talking about.
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DNA's Avatar
United States
2734 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2008  6:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DNA to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You will only see metal if you ask for it. It will be relatively low grade ugly bars of roughly 1000 ounces.


That's why paper futures investors rarely (if ever) take delivery of "1000 oz." bars. Their weight varies from bar to bar, requiring assay service to sell them, whereas 10 and 100 oz. bars made by well-known assayers such as Englehard are easy to personally transport and sell.

Bullion coins are even easier to transport, can be sold in smaller increments, and their 'legal tender' status affords them some additional advantages for selling and trading (some localities will tax the sale of precious metal bars, but not legal tender coins).
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clembo's Avatar
United States
442 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2008  10:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add clembo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It all depends on the the market du jour. If the financial writers tell people thy should take physical delivery of Engelhard bars, that's what everyone will want, and you can't sell them JMs or Sunshines. We would buy a lot of "pig" bars because other dealers wouldn't.

One thing to ask yourself about the investment advice you read in the paper is huh these people are working for a paycheck if they actually knew what they were talking about.


Biggfredd,

You have been at this for a long while as has my boss.
Finding any Englehards or even JM over ten ounces lately?

The only ten ounce bars are walk ins. The only 100 oz are Ohio Precious Metals and those are tough to come by.

They can be bought at a price well over spot. I've been watching the Tulving site for years. Doesn't deal in paper just physical and it astounds me lately.

http://www.tulving.com/goldbull.html#silver

Just a few short months ago one could get Englehard and JM 100oz bars at 49 cents over spot. Sure don't remember seeing those "SOLD OUT" categories.

I've seen Ohio Precious Metal bars available in the morning and gone by afternoon.

Of course those that can afford to hoard the physical silver are doing so. Dealers are having a real hard time locating it at a reasonable price.
People want to buy at a buck over spot for rounds when dealers are paying spot or more just to get it. Some are starting to realize this.

We are selling silver and now gold at WELL over spot and struggling to keep up with the demand.
Of course the boss is paying well over spot for this stuff as well in most cases. What doesn't "walk in" must be bought from bigger outfits and even then it's iffy.

$15 or more for a physical ounce may well be a deal right now. When paper bites the dust it WILL go up. Most likely big time.
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biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2008  07:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't so much bullion anymore, so couldn't really tell you what's coming in. Are the OPMs from between when Walter was running it as Jackson Precious Metals and when Silvertowne bought it, or another maker?
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clembo's Avatar
United States
442 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2008  7:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add clembo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't so much bullion anymore, so couldn't really tell you what's coming in. Are the OPMs from between when Walter was running it as Jackson Precious Metals and when Silvertowne bought it, or another maker?



Their product is new but they are in Jackson, Ohio. Not sure what connection they may have with Silvertowne but I do know they are pretty heavily tied in with Tulving.

My boss talked to them a few weeks ago. I do know they were very active in buying junk, sterling etc. Seems they sell through third parties though.

We had locked in 10 100oz bars about 5 weeks ago and only got half the order. Finally got the other 5 bars today and 4 are already gone.

People are buying silver if they can find it believe me.
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KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2008  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Speaking with a dealer yesterday, we discussed the large disparity between spot price and physical silver.
How interesting...this was less of an issue a few months back. My "gut" tells me that after volatility settles down, this price spread will narrow. I could be wrong, but back when silver wasn't moving much, bullion sold closer to spot.
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clembo's Avatar
United States
442 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2008  7:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add clembo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Speaking with a dealer yesterday, we discussed the large disparity between spot price and physical silver.
How interesting...this was less of an issue a few months back. My "gut" tells me that after volatility settles down, this price spread will narrow. I could be wrong, but back when silver wasn't moving much, bullion sold closer to spot.


I tend to agree with you KurtS.
I also tend to think it will "settle" at a much higher price than the current spot.
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TheForce's Avatar
United States
4867 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2008  10:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheForce to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Right now silver is spotting @ $8.98/oz! But good luck trying to find any at that price!
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biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2008  11:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can't imagine more than one refinery in Jackson. Might be private label work by Silvertowne.

I was there back when. Fond memories of pizza in the wee hours while waiting for the batches to melt for assay. Then there was the time I sold Walter some silver plate and asked what he did with it.

He said when he got a carload, he sent it to the copper refinery, and they credited him for the silver as well. A carload didn't sound like much, until he pointed out to the rr siding. Now a railroad car fulla forks, that's a bunch!
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