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Pillar of the Community
United States
860 Posts |
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So what's in the fabric of the mint bags? The coins were stored for years but no telling how long it took to tone the coins and if that process could be escalated. Sulfur dioxide has been used in "bleaching" many organic products. More so in the past than now. Sulfur compounds also tended to limit mold and insect damage. Black ink to print on cloth in the last century used sulfides in its composition. Not sure if this made the condition or not. You may find this article interesting. http://rg.ancients.info/guide/toning.htmlQuote:
I trust PCGS and NGC to weed out artificially toned and (overly-) cleaned coins. And I have to cause I don't have the equipment or the knowledge to make those judgements. This is not easy to do as toning whether "artificial" or "natural" is basically the same. The difference is time and motive. True, if the toning doesn't "look" right to the grader, it will be marked as questionable. For instance a Peace dollar toned like a Morgan. But is purposely putting a no-problem Morgan into a brown paper envelope for 30 years "artificial" or "natural"? What about 5 years? What about a year or 2 year on a window sill or in an unfinished oak box? Maybe dipping in acid to remove toning should be consider as "artificial untoning" and be ethically as bad as AT, if used to make a coin sell better. Fair should be fair. You don't have to dip a coin to conserve it and stop the toning process. Jim |
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Valued Member
United States
60 Posts |
I may be in the minority and I'm not trying to be incendiary. I simply don't understand the appeal of toners. A nice natural luster or an attractive proof is my idea of a beautiful coin.
I find what I assume are naturally toned coins in pocket change fairly regulary. These coins are common circulated clads usually dinged enough to be uncollectible. Why would anyone AT such coinage? Practicing so as to perfect their AT? Accidental exposure?
Well I'm past the point of no return on " toning " so I'll don my Kevlar vest and ask, isn't "toning" just a dolled up term for tarnish? I failed chemistry so tarnish may be the incorrect term.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
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isn't "toning" just a dolled up term for tarnish? Yes. Nothing wrong with feeling that way - I share your opinion. Toners are nice, they're pretty, and I'm not going out of my way to collect them. Each side of this issue is as valid as the other. That's why they call numismatics "subjective."  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
860 Posts |
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isn't "toning" just a dolled up term for tarnish? Yes, it is. But to be open minded, isn't "dipping" another term for physically removing silver from the coin and altering the surfaces? Certainly there is plenty of room for tastes. I love color, almost all natural color is a "Tarnish" of some sort. I know someone who paid 5 figures for a canvas painted all white by some famous personage. Some people paint the whole inside of their house white. No Problem. The Blast White Morgans for instance would have had to be stored under pristine conditions for the last almost 100 years and very few were. As I recall, Bowers estimated in one of his books that 80%+ of the blast white morgans have been "dipped", so they aren't anymore "natural".than Cher. Some of the patina of classic bronze statues is part of their beauty. Tell the Italians you want to dip their tarnish  Plenty of each type for people to pick their preference. Now new modern coinage I agree should look new. Jim |
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Valued Member
United States
60 Posts |
Thanks for the even tempered responses. I didn't want to start the proverbial "he said, no I didn't say that" scorched earth answers. Of course anyone is free to collect as they see fit. My wifes friend expressed an interest in collecting. I loaned her my Red Book, a few ASEs and my Junk Box #1. The box had a few dateless Buffalos, common date Mercs, a few battered war nickles etc. Above all I told her to decide what she likes and go from there. " Don't let anyone tell you what to collect" I stressed. As I have said, the appeal of toners escapes me. I simply don't see the attraction of multi hued or rainbows. I do understand people want them and that there is a market for them. To each is own. My wife is working on a 1938 - 1961 Jefferson 5¢ Whitman Folder. Everything is from change or rolls. If it has a legible date it's in her album. I'm sure a lot of collecters would consider this a waste of time. Kate, my wife finds it a challenge to plug the holes in her folder. She has 30 of 65 Jeffs and is happy when she finds a better example or a new addition. I cite this to stress that I clearly understand " whatever floats your boat." Check that, she just came home with a '39 Jeff. I'll also add Kate is happy to hit the local coin shop and surprise me with a few things. This past Christmas she gave me two slabbed Peace dollars, a couple of silver Ikes. She has in the past given me some older FRNs & SCs. Eat your hearts out, I'm keeping her. So can anyone clearly state how a major grading outfit decides if a coin is AT or natural? Would someone simply accept their decision? Do they even grade and slab toners? Since it's fairly easy to AT a coin how the devil does anyone decide if it's natural? For collecters of toners could you post your best examples or maybe the toner that got you started? Can a coin be over toned? And here's question, are the reeded edges toned? How about silver versus clad? Yeah, I'm full of inquiries. Maybe the scales will fall from my eyes concerning toners. Denis |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Toners are more of a "good-natured banter" issue among collectors than anything else. Some people feel strongly about it, but not to the point of argument. Unfortunately, one thing almost all collectors will agree on is that it can sometimes be very difficult to decide what is "natural" toning, especially when you consider that this term is essentially undefinable. TPG's will grade and slab toners (the Battle Creek collection is a fine example), but it's a judgment issue, as always. If a coin's providence is proven, as in the Battle Creek case, it's much easier. |
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Valued Member
United States
60 Posts |
"...this term is essentially undefinable," may be as close to an answer as there is.
"Toners are more of a good-natured banter." Perhaps here on CC. High end examples appear regularly over on CT. The discussions there are not exactly heated but there is a considerable debate concerning AT vs natural. It goes as far as say, a toned key date Morgie ruined by the effect.
Would you say a toner has duende? Substitute person in the definition with coin.
duende (dwen?de)
noun
a special quality or charm that makes a person irresistibly attractive
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
655 Posts |
Quote:desertgemSulfur dioxide has been used in "bleaching" many organic products. More so in the past than now. Sulfur compounds also tended to limit mold and insect damage. Black ink to print on cloth in the last century used sulfides in its composition. Not sure if this made the condition or not. You may find this article interesting. http://rg.ancients.info/guide/toning.html That's a good link and an interesting story. I found it, too, and then followed another link ( http://www.tonedcoins.org/forums/vi...forum_id=11) to a forum of toned coin collectors. This last link is to a good story about a guy who bought an expensive Morgan off ebay, purported to be genuinely toned, and what ensued. Here's the coin in question  As far as the sulphur content in cloth bags or cardboard holders, does anybody know of any good ones to buy, either purposely made for coins or not. I wouldn't mind keeping some of my coins in them for a while to see what happens. I do love some types of toning, like rainbows, golden hues, and bulleye effects. OTOH, I can live without really dark or mottled coins. I think part of the way people can tell a quick AT is that it has not had time to react with the metal so the colors just 'sit' on top of the metal. Ron |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5615 Posts |
IMHO, I love the appeal and enhancement a Morgan silver dollar takes on when a plethora of the colors in the spectrum seem to reach out to the eyes and pull you in, with the fascination and excitement of the likes of finding treasure!! |
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New Member
United States
6 Posts |
Ron makes a good point in that we are probably seeing a lot of ATing and the TPG services should consider adding a number or symbol to their bar codes if the coin being graded and slabbed is toned. If it is, and it's an ATed coin they should be able to catch it and note it. (The big bucks we pay them certainly suggests that they should be able to tell the difference) This summer while my son was home he showed me a penny he had ATed in chem class back in high school. He is not a coin collector - his teacher was simply teaching the students how different metals react with chemicals. His penny was a solid golden yellow, though he doesn't remember now what chemical they used that day. But it was a permanent change and it doesn't rub off. I wonder how deep you would have to scratch it to get to the original metal coloring. But I have seen some Morgans on ebay that are simply too deep and vivid with every color you can imagine on both sides of the coin - and no areas showing original luster. I just cannot accept that this is not ATing; either chemical or microwave or something. Has anyone else seen these wildly colored Morgans? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
655 Posts |
So I found a site on that great internet universe that carries the old mint bags: http://www.coinland.com/show_catego...arent_id=385. (How they got them they're not saying.) I just hope it's one of the original sulfur-type canvas bags. I figure to take some coins I'm keeping in boring, inert flips and see if the fabric will give them some nice rainbow pinstripes. While I was visiting that site I couldn't resist ordering a gold-plated nickel and a two-headed coin- I think I have too much time on my hands. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
860 Posts |
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If it is, and it's an ATed coin they should be able to catch it and note it. (The big bucks we pay them certainly suggests that they should be able to tell the difference) SuperDave is very correct in his view. In the PCGS "Official guide to coin grading and Counterfeit Detection" They say Artificial toning is of suspect if: 1. The toning floats on the surface of the coin rather than having depth and being bonded to the metal. 2. The toning occurs over hairlines or other marks. 3. The toning exhibits bright "crayon" colors. 4. The toning has a yellow-brown, smoky appearance, indicating it was caused by cigarette or cigar smoke. But from #3 above, most of the Battle Creek coins would not pass, except for the groups provenance. Break them out and submit to NCG and see how many would pass. PCGS says it is often "intent", such as if the toning is over defects or to hide hairlines that designates AT. Intent is also interpreted as one intensifying the toning reaction. Even using old coin bags, wrapping with acidic tissue paper, putting on oak window sill, etc. would be "intent", but is considered a "gray area". PCGS implies they use the same care eliminating coins that have been dipped ( that obviously involves intent also), but I think that unless the dipping actually damaged the surface visibly, it is more acceptable than AT suspected toning. I believe both should be treated equally by TPG and collectors. I have coins that in my ignorance 25-30 yrs ago, I put into some old kraftpaper coin envelopes. They were white then, not now. When posted in various forums they are called AT half of the time. If I saw them in a photo, I might think so also. I have coins that I put into 2x2 even before that, and they developed toning at 3,6,9,12 o'clock due to the location of the staples. Looks as odd as H***, but 75% sent to ICG were OK, 25% called AT? Enjoy the discussion. Jim |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
655 Posts |
So I placed my order with Coinland only to find out too late that it's a recently made canvas bag- probably not cured with the toning agents I want. (I expressed to them that their site clearly leads one to think that they're very old.) Anyway, it's mine now, not much else I can do with it. It doesn't even come with a tie.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
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What causes silver to tone
in various colors at once it doesn't tone the different colors at once each color is a progression and they are layers of different colors on silver coins. It will even change the colors that are already on the coin through time until it gets to completely black unless the conditions the coin is in changes to where the air that has caused the coin to tone can't get to the coin any longer |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
1015 Posts |
Sorry it took so long to get back to you with the result of the theory,it was a dismal failure and not worth describing the process,I only use a low value coin for the experiment so my coin stocks didn't suffer needless to say I won't be doing that again  |
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Replies: 56 / Views: 57,360 |
First Page
Posted 02/05/2009 7:07 pm
