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New German Laws On Numismatics - Scary!

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wcg's Avatar
United States
217 Posts
 Posted 02/09/2009  10:38 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add wcg to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Read this thread on the PCGS forum for a very concerning development in German laws regarding coins. Please comment if you have any additional facts.

http://forums.collectors.com/messag...eadid=704463
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manila galleon trade's Avatar
Spain
1361 Posts
 Posted 02/09/2009  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add manila galleon trade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can only say that a lot of good collection will be distroyed or damage during confiscation and wrong storage.
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Archraz's Avatar
United States
3499 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2009  01:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow that is scary.
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wd1040's Avatar
United States
3098 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2009  01:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wd1040 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not to bring anything bad up, but



Quote:
German cultural authorities have begun searching private homes and seizing...


The words "German" "authorities" "searching" "seizing" "private homes" just sounds scary! Especially in the same sentence!
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16826 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2009  05:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I suspect the main targets of these laws are the dealers; Germany has long been a place where illicitly acquired ancient coin have been "laundered" through the big German auction houses, no questions asked.

Of course, from the perspective of the extremist archaeologists who are pushing these laws, if a few collectors get harassed and intimidated away from the hobby, that would be a fringe benefit. If building and maintaining a private coin collection requires so much bureaucracy and paperwork that many collectors just give up, even better.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Germany
1238 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2009  10:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chrisild to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Don't know why this topic has suddenly become so popular in the US; it is not exactly new. But maybe some people won't notice it unless ebay changes its policy. And generalizations such as "the German government" are not exactly helpful methinks when it comes to what some in the Hessian police think is appropriate action.

This issue has been discussed for at least half a year in various coin magazines (MünzenRevue, Münzen & Sammeln, etc.). You could even read about in the catalog of the World Money Fair http://www.worldmoneyfair.ch/wmf/pd..._Katalog.pdf Since the WMF is the world's biggest coin show, they also provided an English version of that article.

Christian
Edited by chrisild
02/10/2009 10:09 am
Pillar of the Community
Germany
1238 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2009  12:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chrisild to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a blog page from early November 2008, in English, which deals with the issue. http://paul-barford.blogspot.com/20...eaction.html Quite interesting since Paul Barford and Ursula Kampmann are in two different camps, so to say. At least the discussion was a little more civilized and closer to the facts than some of the earlier comments here or in that PCGS forum. Yes, this is a very serious problem, especially for the affected collectors. Guess why the DNG, the VDDM and other organizations have issued their joint statement, and why FENAP president Dr. Hubert Lanz addresses the seizures in the WMF catalog ...

But apparently some people (dealers?) in the US now use the opportunity for a strange campaign. Their tone is in my opinion about as confrontational and intimidating as that of this Hessian police officer. See this fairly recent entry in the same blog: http://paul-barford.blogspot.com/20...sues-or.html

And no, I do not necessarily share Mr Barford's views; by and large he seems to defend or even support those questionable police measures. But at least you can learn a little more about the myths that have been spread lately.

Christian
Valued Member
wcg's Avatar
United States
217 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2009  12:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wcg to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Christian -
Thanks for the thoughts. This is exactly the type sentiment that I was hoping would be shared. I plan on spending time this evening combing through the links you provided to gain a better perspective.
Brent
Valued Member
wcg's Avatar
United States
217 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2009  10:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wcg to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As Paul Harvey might say, and the rest of the story....

http://coinarchaeology.blogspot.com...ies-and.html

Following Christian's links, this commentary also seems to present a more rounded discussion of the facts.
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Germany
1238 Posts
 Posted 02/11/2009  5:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chrisild to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
As Paul Harvey might say, and the rest of the story....

A pretty balanced view as far as I can tell. And yes, Raubgrabung sure is an issue, as is theft from a museum. There are a few issues however which should be looked into a little further. For example, Nathan Elkins writes:

However, it is my impression that although stolen property ought to be recovered, criminal charges are not filed unless the receiver of stolen goods is aware that the goods are in fact stolen. In any case, this does not mean that the buyer is entitled to retain stolen goods.

Well, there is that case of a 62 year old man in Eisenberg, TH who (due to an investigation of the Hessian police) got rid of his entire collection of about 250 pieces because four ancient Greek coins that he bought via ebay may have an obscure background. That was in June 2008. And the collection was confiscated merely because he collects coins, not pedigrees or proofs of provenance ...

Even the police in Jena said that the man seemed, with regard to buying these coins, to be a case of naivete rather than criminal energy. Now you may say, yes, it would make sense to always keep the documents (see above) along with the coins. Fully agreed, even though such documentation is not a legal requirement in Germany. And you may say that, apart from those "obscure four", he will ultimately get his coins back. Quite possibly so.

But don't be too sure. A coin dealer in Solingen, NW was accused of fencing, in the case of a Celtic coin which according to the Hessian police had been from a looted site in Hesse. Well, finally the court told him that the case would no longer be continued (Einstellung des Verfahrens), and even the Ministery of Culture in Rhineland-Palatinate (the seller's state of residence) said that the coin was not covered by the Treasure Trove Regulation.

Was the coin returned? No, the Hessian police will not give it back, as they still assume the coin was looted ... In the meantime, some members of the Hessian Parliament have asked the state administration whether the activities of the Hessian police, particularly Eckhard Laufer's campaign, is backed by the government and what the legal background is.

Please note that the information above is from various German newspaper/coin magazine articles; I do not have any first hand info. Is there reason to be concerned? Seems so. But the whole thing is pretty far away from the picture that some dealers and collectors in the US are painting these days.

Christian
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