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 Replies: 29 / Views: 5,136 |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
swamperbob, you seem very knowledgeable about non-US counterfeit coins. And according to your profile, in this is your main interest. I am curious about one thing: how did you get to be a retired structural engineer and, as best as I can tell, one of the most knowledgeable on this forum regarding foreign counterfeits, all by the age of 13?  [:0] . (Hey, I'm only just repeating what it says in your profile.  ) My next question would be of certain bidders: why on Earth would anyone with 1/2-ounce of sense bid on a very old Mexican coin from a seller whose address is in China and keeps his auction bidders' IDs private? This is in the same league as someone breaking INTO a prison or trying to hold up a police station.  At some point, buyers must take responsibility for their own actions, stupid as they might be. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5362 Posts |
I don't know where the 13 years old came from. I saw that and attempted to correct it but my computer illiteracy knows no bounds and I couldn't do it. I have been retired for 9 years now and moved to North Carolina about 2 yaers ago to get a bit warmer climate than New England. I agree whole heartedly that these ebay bidders often need to have their heads examined. But I have another example you should check, before you focus only on Chinese Private auctions, just to see how a counterfeit actually sells. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=8399054162The coin here is an 1882 Zs JS forgery with a reeded edge. They are made in China and are perhaps the most common and AWFUL looking counterfeits out there. Many were sold to tourists and soldeiers. They are rank flea market material. When it was posted I wrote to the seller and advised her it was a fake. She answered me and we began a dialog. She is a nice honest (I believe) beginner on ebay. I showed her a picture of a real 1882 coin and explained what she was selling. I didn't want to turn her in to ebay, but ultimately she chose not to believe me. The coin sold for about 10 times what it is worth. The buyer paid for it and she left him feedback immediately. I figured she had been set up for a negative. But then the buyer posted feedback for her. POSITIVE and in glowing terms. His wording was "Great to do business with. Accurate description, fair price and speedy delivery." This counterfeit is NOT silver, is NOT the correct weight, looks nothing like a real 1882 8R and it has a reeded edge because it is struck in a collared press. So much for accuracy. As far as fair price, these sell for $3 or less in flea markets. I think ebay is giving a whole new level of meaning to P.T Barnum's quote about the typical timing of the birth of a sucker.  |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
I belong to a group called COINAF (Coalition Of Internet Numismatists Against Fraud) http://www.coinaf.org/index.htm to which several CCF members also belong. You might be interested in checking it out; you're certainly well-informed on the subject. I used the Chinese private auction as a blatant example. The con artists who we would most like to see banned from ebay and fitted for orange jumpsuits are right here in the good ol' US of A, in particular in Savannah, GA. They hover right at the edge of the law and ebay's Terms of Service and are slipperier than a greased pig in August. For some fine examples of fraud at work from the US, see: estatedoctor and, for you Morganphiles (like me), take a look at: http://cgi.ebay.com/1891-CC-Morgan-...mZ8401457944 and try to tell me s/he hasn't slipped a circulated Morgan into a GSA holder. Nowhere does the seller claim this Morgan is uncirculated; he just puts out pictures and lets bidders ASSUME whatever they want. Mostly, these type sellers target the gullible, ignorant, and greedy types who think they are getting something for almost nothing. Worse, they may not learn they have been duped for many years and the truth about a particular coin might not be discovered until the buyer tries to peddle it him/herself or his/her heirs take such a "rare" coin in to have it appraised only to find out its worthless. As you stated, PT Barnum's theorum is demonstrated 60 times per hour. How do we protect people from themselves, especially when they don't want to be protected? Fred |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Swamperbob, I know next to nothing about Mexican coinage but even I can tell that the 1882 8R is a flaming fake . It looks like that thing came from Chuckie Cheese's token bin  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
That's exactly why I wouldn't think of paying $31.55 like the buyer did in this case.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
swamperbob I am not sure where Benson NC is but I am in Bessemer City NC myself which is just slightly west of Charlotte. anyway I wanted to say that you amaze me with the knowledge of counterfits. heck I probably wouldnt know a counterfit morgan if I saw one (and thats about all I collect)I guess it takes experience to be able to spot this stuff and I am glad you are on our side and decided to join us on this forum to enlighten is in the field of counterfits because it could save some of us some money and teach us what to look for in the future
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Benson is a small town in Johnston County about 20 miles south east of Raleigh. Moved here after I retired looking for a warmer climate than New England.
My education on counterfeits began about 1960 in Massachusetts. I learned from a few old time dealers - one had links to a forger.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Here we have another of the fraudulent posts. This particular date is so rare that only ONE confirmed copy is known to exist. This one is made from a late date (post 1886) standardized die host coin. In this case the "dragon's teeth" were tooled off. For those who may not know about the Dragon's Teeth - there are two small points between the center three rays under the cap. These very tiny (under 1mm) features are early anti-counterfeiting devices. http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Zs-1870-YH...mZ8404365652The seller here is tied to the Beijing group. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
I see he has a few of that type of coin on ebay all with different dates though |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The others he has posted - at least the Cap and Ray types are real. Many are the same type (standardized die) that was used to make the alteration. The altered coin itself is a REAL 8R coin - just not the date claimed.
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by swamperbob
Here we have another of the fraudulent posts. This particular date is so rare that only ONE confirmed copy is known to exist. This one is made from a late date (post 1886) standardized die host coin. In this case the "dragon's teeth" were tooled off. For those who may not know about the Dragon's Teeth - there are two small points between the center three rays under the cap. These very tiny (under 1mm) features are early anti-counterfeiting devices.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Zs-1870-YH...mZ8404365652
The seller here is tied to the Beijing group.
Bob, did you file a report to ebay on this coin with the above details? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Yes, I reported this auction to ebay this morning. I was waiting to be able to compare his other items with my file of forgeries. I have a file of copies of counterfeits on my PC that I have copied from ebay. (Perhaps a technical rule violation.) I started the project a couple years ago because these guys are smart enough not to post the same fake too close together. There are many Portrait and Pillar types that are identified by die markers - cracks, chips and scratches that match coin to coin. But in this case, he has done a good job obscuring the problem areas with dark toning and possibly edited pictures. They are getting smarter all the time. I have a "gut feeling" that all of the earlier coins he has posted are forgeries BUT I can't prove that even to myself let alone ebay. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
You oughtta be heading up ebay's fraud division... if they had one. Please keep up the good work! Fred |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I would definitely volunteer to spot fakes like this - they are relatively easy.
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Replies: 29 / Views: 5,136 |
First Page
Posted 04/03/2006 7:54 pm
