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What One Can Learn From Collecting A Series

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Author Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 1,701Next Topic  
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okie-colin's Avatar
United States
1083 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2009  3:30 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add okie-colin to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Even a short series like the 41-47 Walking Liberty halves in BU. I now lack 3 dates out of the twenty coins in the series. I am buying all slabbed MS63 to 65 in PCGS or NGC plastic. The supposed key is the 1942-S, but they are plentiful in MS 63 and 64. The real key in terms of scarcity is the 42-S and the 43-D, at least in MS64. MS65 is going for upwards of $500 if you can find them!! I have also gotten a real education on the inconsistency of PCGS slabbed coins. I have returned to the sellers over four slabs in MS64 where the coin had ugly dark toning and what I would swear was wear on the head and gown of liberty and on the breast of the eagle, but I guess was just a poor strike. Eye appeal appears to have little affect on these professional graders. I also have purchased MS 63 slabs where the quality of the coin was better than some of the 64s that I bought. Grading really is a subjective process!
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nolawyer's Avatar
United States
763 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2009  4:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nolawyer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mint state grading seems very subjective to me indeed. It can be a bit troublesome especially with some of the huge price differences between the grades.
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Saruma's Avatar
United States
968 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2009  5:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Saruma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just yesterday (11/19) I saw an article in the Wall Street Journal about coin collecting (focused on very high end coins). One interesting fact mentioned was that the PCGS has a staff of about 20 graders (I'm guessing they mean on any given day) and grade about 12,000 coins per day. That means each grader is doing 600 coins per day. That would suggest a rate of more than one coin per minute! I have a hard time believing that they can keep up that rate without making a lot of mistakes.
Rest in Peace
coinguybrian's Avatar
United States
5375 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2009  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinguybrian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow saruma, if that is right, that explains the gross inconsistencies in a lot of coins that can be seen...I'd like to see the article though! It sounds like it'd be more than 20 graders, I'd be real surprised to find out it was.
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nolawyer's Avatar
United States
763 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2009  5:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nolawyer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Actually, I think each coin is graded by 2 graders at PCGS so each grader would have to grade 1,200 coins a day if information is correct
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Saruma's Avatar
United States
968 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2009  6:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Saruma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you can find yesterday's (11/19) Wall St. Journal, look at the front page of the Personal Journal section for an article called "The Million-Dollar Penny".

I just realized I made a mistake, the statistics I quoted were for NGC, not PCGS. My apologies. Although I bet the ratio of coins to graders is probably similar at PCGS. Anyway here is the relevant quote from the article:

"U.S. Demand for grading services has surged to such a degree that the company's 20 graders are handling as many as 12,000 coins a day..."
Valued Member
Brian Mc's Avatar
United States
124 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2009  7:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Brian Mc to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm pretty suspicious of the whole industry behind slabbed coins. Graders have to use some objective criteria, like degree of wear for AU or lower and number/size of bag marks for MS. But these criteria cannot take eye appeal into any real consideration.

And it is also true that the number of coins they have to grade virtually assures that they can only give the coin a cursory look.

The fact that the CAC exists (which is essentially a fourth party grader) demonstrates that the system is flawed.

Where will it end? A firm that certifies its judgment of CAC's judgment of PCGS?
Edited by Brian Mc
11/20/2009 7:49 pm
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hippiebrian's Avatar
United States
436 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2009  09:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hippiebrian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another reason to "but the coin, not the slab". I usually only buy coins over say 150.00 or so from my local dealer, so I can examine the coin in hand. Also, he is a highly trusted dealer, so if he has a raw coin, it can be trusted, and money can be saved!
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weerdsteev's Avatar
United States
1291 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2009  10:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add weerdsteev to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
600 coins per day?!?! If I had a pile of 600 coins and all I had to do was record the denomination, year and mint I'm not so sure I could get through THAT in 8 hours, much less ACCURATELY determine the grade! Sheesh!
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ceaton's Avatar
United States
1179 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2009  6:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ceaton to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I really hope they have more than 20 graders. That seems very small for the amount that they grade daily. I like the fact they grade each coin twice...but whats the difference if there was a total of 2 minutes on each coin.
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Figman's Avatar
United States
245 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2009  6:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Figman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If they have 20 graders then they must have another 30 for S&R + billing.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2009  10:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This what is really great about attended coin shows or a fairly large coin store. As I've wander around the average coin show and see coins in slabs I really wonder some times at just how bad the eyes are of some graders. I've seen so many coins graded in the MS grades that are really a mess. And that is some of the ones in -62, -63 and upward. And it is with almost any TPGS too. Of course I've noticed the opposite too where a coin appears to be much higher a grade than stated. I know I'm lousy at grading but if I see something wrong in a grade, it has to be wrong.
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925dealer's Avatar
United States
258 Posts
 Posted 12/09/2009  10:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 925dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As much as we hate the thought the upper end of the coin market wants graded coins and are willing to pay for them. Buyers want an "impartial" third party opinion. I don't know how you can be an impartial third party when you are charging $35.00 + - to get a coin graded. Nevertheless this is the state of the numismatic world where building registry sets is a past time of the big money. One of my friends who has an inside track to one of the big grading companies said they will let you "buy" the grade. How? Just submit the same coin 20 or 30 times. Sooner or later they will give you that next higher grade which can be a very significant difference in price. It is ok to spend a grand or two if the value of the coin goes from $1,000 to $10,000 for the next higher grade.

A part of the problem is a lot of people are simply too lazy to learn how to grade a coin themselves. When they purchase a graded coin they are removing the responsibility of choosing a grade themselves. As mentioned before this is very dangerous as many coins are not "universal" in the same grades. One coin will be extra nice and another with the same date will grade the same even if it in no way compares to the first. Let the graded coin buyer beware!

In a nutshell we coin dealers want you to remember this. BUY THE COIN, NOT THE CONTAINER. Quality and value are obvious when looking at a beautiful coin. If you think it is beautiful, someone else will also. If you think the coin is ugly, guess what, it is ugly regardless of how the company graded it. You can still sell ugly coins but it is much harder to do.

Oh and on another note. This is a CLASSIC EXAMPLE of failure on the part of a customer to trust a dealers opinion. One of my friends had a key date Morgan and was asking $1,500 for it. He figured it graded better than the price he was charging but was happy with that price. One of his customers INSISTED he get it graded before he would buy it. No problem he replied and sent it in. It graded higher just like he thought it would. New price of coin? $3,000. Customer should have listened to the dealer or better yet, learned to grade coins himself! Sincerely, John Leckrone

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