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 Replies: 41 / Views: 8,409 |
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1283 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by BERRY4402
Dinosaur, I agree with the idea of not revealing who the grading company was that you investigated!!!
Please tell us who you did not investigate!!!!!.....
There should be no dilemma in doing that...
Thanks for the stroy Dinosaur.
Berry
Now THAT is an excellent idea! :) How could he possibly get sued for telling us which company it was NOT? |
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New Member
United States
21 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by dinosaur
First of all let me state I have been collecting coins for 41 years and am quite adapt at grading. And I have a very impressive collection by any standards.
Myself and a very close friend(Major Dealer) made a personal wager on one of the top TPGS and their practices. So we took 2 coins a 1927 s SLQ and a 1921 s Lincoln Penny and I sent them to this service for grading. I firmly belived as my friend did the 1927 SLQ was au-58 and the 1921 penny was ms 64 bn.
I was shocked when the coins came back as 1927 slq vf30 and the 1921 penny ms 60 bn. Each coin 4 full points under what they should have graded. So we removed the coins from slabs I sent them to the same TPGS with the same results(big suprise).
Most people would think well they are very accurately grading these coins. Well we removed the same coins from the slabs yet again this time my friend sent them in and they came back slabbed 1927 SLQ MS-60 and the 1921 penny came back MS -65 bn. So once again we removed coins from slab resent them and same results.
As for the wager between us I bet him that the TPG would grade coins he sent in higher than coins I sent. Now these are the same coins as we video taped and photgraphed the coins and procedure we used and were extremly careful not to damage the coins in any way.
Now here is where it gets really interesting. I did a walkthrough of these same coins RAW condition, the 1927 SLQ graded ef-40 and the 1921 penny graded ms 61bn. MMMM another big suprise coins graded higher when I paid the higher fees. Once agin we removed these same coins from their slabs and he did a walkthrough this time they graded 1927 SLQ MS-63 FH and the 1921 penny graded ms-67 brown.
It utterly amasing me and shows me that if you are a well known dealer who sends hunderds of coins a month in your coins will grade grossly higher than joe public colletors coins do. When I called their customer service I was told the (coins removed from holder then their is no guaranteee to the grade story)
When I explained the procedures we used and told them I had video and photgraphic evidence as well as a very detailed paper trail, They refused to comment and stated the no guarantee to grade BS again. It cost me nothing on this because the deal myself and friend had was loser of the wager paid for all fees incurred. But it Proved a very good point.
If you are a major dealer your coins will be graded higher than average joe collectors coins and if you pay the higher price walkthrough service your coin will grade even higher that what it actually is. This poses a VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM to the market thus flooding the market with overgraded coins. Yet most people are so mind washed by ads and media about the advantages of a TPG they will only buy a coin that has been slabbed by such a service, and they refuse to even look at a raw coin.
Do not get me wrong TPGS have done a very good job of removing a lot of problem and counterfit coins from the market place. In the near future we shall be making a dvd of this procedure but we may leave out the TPG name due to the fact they would more than likely sue us over this (I am speaking with an attorney to see if I can show the companies name we used in the dvd).
I will not give anyone the name of this company until I know for sure from my attorney I can legally do so. I personally REFUSE TO OWN A SLABBED COIN! I enjoy holding the coin and looking at it if I wanted to hold a piece of plastic I can go to the fridge for a coke bottle.
All a TPGS does is give their opinion of the grade of a coin, and the higher the price you pay them the higher grade they assign your coin. I do not need any company giving me their opinion of the grade of my coin as I can grade it myself. Is their opinion better than mine since they are a company?
Sorry for such a long winded post just wanted to let everyone know, We will be doing the same procedure with a few of the other TPGS in the comming months and will post the results when we finish. BUY THE COIN NOT THE PLASTIC!!!!!!!!!
I love this story and many collectors/investors may suspect that it is true; but since Dinosaur has not replied this is probably just fiction? John |
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Valued Member
United States
394 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by dinosaur
Sorry adobero1 but I cannot disclose the name of the company we tested.But rest assured when I find out if I can disclose their name I will.
Hello dinosaur, if you are still monitoring the CCF I just wanted to jog your memory about the possibility of disclosing the TPG company that you dealt with. You stated this in July, if you still don't have an answer, you could at least list the TPGs you and your dealer friend did not deal with. You could provide a great service to your forum friends. Berry |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
quote:
I understand that ANACS is the only one of the major TPGs that actually doesn't care (or communicate to the graders) who sends the coin in. If it's not ANACS, it must be ICG, but there is one that I have heard of.
But he said they did walkthrough submissions with the firm as well. I believe only NGC and PCGS do walkthroughs. quote:
Once upon a time you could get a coin authenticated without grading. Not only that but that's all you had to pay for.
True, but the fee for authentication and the fee for authentication plus grading were the same. Since you had to pay the same either way most people just went all the way for grading. By the way, nice early certificate. Third generation I believe. Edited by Conder101
01/27/2007 5:19 pm
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Valued Member
United States
256 Posts |
Geesh, I have a dealer friend who sends hundreds of coins to ***** every year. From what I am reading, maybe I will send a few of my coins with him next time instead of submitting them myself!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1026 Posts |
Well I must say that one of the top grading companies has been grading coins for HSN and they have way to many MS70 and PF70 ect.
The other day I see that the HSN was taking pre-sales for the new 2007 coins and guaranteeing they would be PF and MS70 even before they have them in hand now to me this adds proof to your statement that the more money you send a TGC the more perfect coins you get back.
I also read an article that one of the TGC paid almost a 2 million dollar fine for under grading coins on purpose than buying them at a reduced cost and reselling them forget the entire article.
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
BUMP!  |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1267 Posts |
I was thinking that it must have been one of those abc grading companies until he mentioned a walkthrough, which is only offered by ngc and pcgs. The penny supposedly went from ms60 to ms67, a 7 point ms jump? Sorry, I don't believe that. Perhaps a point or maybe 2, but not 7 in ms. PCGS and NGC are far from always right, but they are better than that. JMHO.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
819 Posts |
Great post and interesting story..it confirms my conviction that there is much amess witht the TPGs and reaffirms my raw coin collecting theory. It also points out how important it is to become as much of an expert as you can in regards to grading criteria of what you collect.
The belief that the TPGs may favor those who spend more money with them is what is known as the "pygmalion effect" and has long been established in education...students who impress the teacher get better grades even when they don't deserve it.
A researcher n Ca. named Greenhow randomly divided some white rats into two groups, gave them to grad students to run maze tests on; told one group they had been given the smartest rats according to previous tests and the other group that they had dumb rats. In the maze test the "smart" rats scored significantly higher than the "dumb" rats even though they were the same by previous tests. intersting..depends on the mindset you start with and the TPGs cannot be oblivious to where the coin came from unless the TPGs would institute a policy of assigning a "certification number" to the coins linking them to the sender thereby removing all indications of "who" sent the coin in, the grader would not know and the certificatio number would be matched back up with the sender after the grade assigned. any other way coins would get co-mingled and create even larger problems. Don't expect to see any TPGs advertising such a program soon.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Your idea of assigning a "certification number" to submissions to hide the submitter is already in use by ICG. The firm you send your coins to is NOT the grading company itself but is a saperate company that just removes the coins from the mail packages and places them into ICG flips so that when the coins actually arrive at ICG they are in totally anonymous holders
Of course when a major sale is acquired by an auction house it gets a lot of publicity and it becomes pretty widely known what is in the collections, especially the "special" pieces. So when these easily recognized "special: coins show up at the grading sevice it doesn't that a lot of brain power to know that all these other coins that are with that "special" coin are also being submitted bythat same person or auction house. So it quickly becomes impossible to keep from the graders who the coins were submitted by.
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Posted 10/23/2006 01:18 am
