ancientmoderngold, much of what you state is true. But, for someone who, by your own admission, "think[s] it is dumb to pay to have coins graded" and has never sent any coins to NNC nor NTC, you certainly have some strong opinions on the coin grading services and companies and me in particular, but based on weak and unsubstantiated evidence. You apparently failed to read the last sentence of my post:
"All that said, some good bargains may be obtained by buying a non-rated (last rate) TPG-slabbed coin IF AND ONLY IF one has detailed knowledge of that particular series.". Most of your diatribe merely restates and reinforces what I and virtually all the more knowledgeable members of CCF have been stating since the inception of this group: the key to successful purchases lies in
EDUCATION of one's self prior to purchase. Some of us have organized to combat internet coin fraud
http://coinaf.org/index.htm ; our major thrust has been toward education and, working with the
ANA and other groups to educate new and/or uninformed collectors. To restate in another manner: we guide new and/or uneducated buyers away from the TPGs which have proved less than accurate in their grading and certification, and toward the TPGs which have proven reliability and guaranteed service while, at the same time, educating them in what they need to know to keep from being defrauded. This I attempted to do on this thread and many others with relatively inexperienced buyers who are seeking such knowledge. The issue of grading costs and consistency are not at issue here; it is inherent in the system that a certain lack of consistency among all the TPGs is to be expected with the exception of those that grade consistently high to the point of ludicrousness.
ancientmoderngold, (do you have a name? You seem to prefer anonymity, which I respect, but it prevents anyone from determining your credibility and you have presented no credentials); you seem to have ignored by errors of omission, commission, interpretation, and fact certain aspects of grading in general and certain TPGs in particular. To state that NNC, NTC, PCI, SEGS (listing only those you listed) and the other alphabet slabs so common on
ebay are reputable or even legitimate third party grading services compared with PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and ICG belies the evidence and general knowledge within the numismatic community.
Error #1 (of fact): You maintain that SGS is not a
TPG while NNC and NTC are. SGS is in fact in the same category as NNC, NTC, and PCI since SGS does indeed accept submissions from the public
http://www.stargrading.org/ although SGS makes a mockery of the grading system as do most other non-tiered grading companies.
Error #2 (of omission and commission): You added SEGS and PCI to the list of TPGs while I had not mentioned them. This obfuscates the issue since both have been around for awhile, albeit with less than sterling reputations, PCI more tarnished than SEGS (the later perhaps undeservedly so). My experience with SEGS is limited, but I can assure you PCI consistently overgrades.
Error #3 (of interpretation): The original topic post requested information on ANI, a grading company relatively new to
ebay to which I responded negatively. I welcome dissenting viewpoints. However, you dissemble and dissipate your arguments by tangents unrelated to the core issue of grading companies' reputations for overgrading and grading problem coins. Specifically, you added grading standards inequity, grading costs, "good deals", and insufficient
ANA and Photograde grading standards. While I am not disagreeing with your statements, they obfuscate the primary issues.
Error #4 (of interpretation): Fraud goes to intent. If a grading company intentionally, repeatedly, and consistently overgrades coins above established industry standards with the intent to attract more business by overgrading the established competition (which follows as best they can industry standards) such that consumers seek these higher grades, even if the grading company does not itself sell the coins, this may be considered fraudulent intent. Overgrading by itself may constitute fraud as ASA Accugrade (ACG) learned (and is still learning) in court to its dismay.
I recommend you read Reid Goldsborough's article on TPGs:
http://rg.ancients.info/guide/slabs.html . I will not discuss the PNG-ICTA survey since you have summarily dismissed it although I did not mention it in this thread. However, since its two surveys of the TPGs are the only ones of its nature, biased they might be, they are all with which we have to reference. I suggest you do your own survey if you do not like the PNG-ICTA survey. I can safely state that if one were to take NNC, NTC, HCGS, ACG, and the other non-tiered
TPG's into a coin show, they would be laughed off the bourse.
In determination of a grading company's reputation, credibility, and standards, one may look at two factors: the grades they give coins and their stated guarantees that their grades and certifications are as accurate as humanly possible.
Without making this any longer than it already is, here's some examples of NNC- graded coins (I use Morgans since I am most familiar with them):
NNC-Graded Morgans On eBayA specific example of NNC's overgrading (MS-66). Those gouges on Liberty's chin and the bag marks on both sides would reduce this Morgan to MS-62 or -63 at best at any of the top TPGs and under anyone's standards and definitions:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1887-Morgan-Sil...66_W0QQitemZ230020435891QQihZ013QQcategoryZ139811QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Here's a bunch of NTC-graded Morgans:
NTC-graded Morgans On ebay A specific example of NTC's overgrading (MS-68). The rubs and marks on Liberty's face would take it out of the MS-68 (and --67) grades under anyone's standards and definitions:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1890-S-Morgan-S...68_W0QQitemZ230018032076QQihZ013QQcategoryZ39465QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
No doubt, these are very nice coins, but NNC and NTC deliberately overgraded them for the benefit of sellers who try to peddle them as something they are not. Take one look at all the high-grade Mint States listed, then compare them with the top TPGs of comparable quality. Again, NNC and NTC have the poor reputation for overgrading and often grossly overgrading coins. Fortunately, most Morgan buyers are aware of NNC's and NTC's non-compliance with industry standards and bid prices several grades lower. I say again, newbies and uninformed buyers too often do not know this and bid far more than the coin is worth. This puts NNC and NTC at the bottom of the
TPG pile. I could run through similar examples for PCI, HCGS, PGS, CCGS, and the like, but time and space don't permit. I also reiterate:
IF AND ONLY IF one has the knowledge and knows the market, one can buy some very good bargains slabbed by these non-rated grading companies. However, this does NOT make them into legitimate nor reputable third party grading services.
I have dealt with both NNC and NTC coins many times. In several instances with both slabs, I have found circulated coins at VF levels labeled as MS-65 and cleaned and damaged coins also labeled Mint State with no annotations. One NNC
Washington quarter was labeled 1955-S (ain't no such animal).
The second factor is whether or not a
TPG will back up its assessment of a coin with a guarantee that a coin is authentic and its grade reasonably accurate. A quick survey of the guarantee policies for most of the aforementioned
TPG services and companies:
http://www.nnccoingrading.com/ NNC NO GUARANTEE
http://www.numistrust.com/ NTC NO GUARANTEE
http://www.stargrading.org/ SGS NO GUARANTEE
http://www.pcicoins.com/fees.htm PCI NO GUARANTEE
http://www.asa-accugrade.com/index.php ACG (ASA ACCUGRADE) NO GUARANTEE
http://www.segsgrading.com/guarantee.html SEGS GUARANTEE
http://www.icgcoin.com/ICGGuarantee...Default.aspx ICG GUARANTEE
http://www.pcgs.com/bill.chtml PCGS GUARANTEE
http://www.anacs.com/Default.aspx?Page=15 ANACS GUARANTEE
http://www.ngccoin.com/services/wri...guaranty.asp NGC GUARANTEE
HCGS - Webpage not operational at this time.
If a company does not have faith enough in its own product to back it up with a guarantee, what good is it and why does it bother to stay in business? I stand by my statements in my earlier post.
I pride myself that I have set my personal and professional ethical and character standards higher than almost anyone I know since my Boy Scouting tradition and my Eagle Scout rank coupled with my life's experiences are something I will not disavow nor abrogate. I have never claimed to be an expert on anything including Morgans and have so stated many times. My credentials, character, and experiences are an open book (see signature and
http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html).
***Edited by Susanlynn9 to remove responses to above derrogatory remarks***
Posted 08/19/2006 10:29 pm
