| Author |
Replies: 6 / Views: 2,811 |
|
|
Valued Member
United States
236 Posts |
Batcreek Vs Numismatics By Dewey Maggard
During World War II, the Army Corps of Engineers was digging up the earth in preparations for an Army Installation at this place called Bat Creek, Tenn. To the amazement of those involved with this project, one of the men found this cache of loose coins, all together at a depth of approximately twelve feet. As he looked over the small pieces of round disks, he was at a loss to know what they were. He gathered them up and took them to his superior officer to have a look.
The officer was no better off, but decided these might be of some unusual significance due to the depth of where they were found. He in turn took them to the commanding officer for further examination. After many deliberations, these coins finally ended up with the curator of the Smithsonian Institute.
It was soon discovered to be Hebrew inscriptions on the coins, and presently a Hebrew scholar was summoned. His findings revealed these coins were all from the period of the Maccabees of the Bar-Koba revolt era of 133 A.D. This find did not make headlines of national newspapers. Why? Good question! It seems anytime a fantastic discovery is made, there are always the skeptics—well, maybe they were planted. So, rather than face possible embarrassment, the story dies and valuable knowledge becomes suppressed.
Within a few years after this event, other startling discoveries have been made in fifty-two other locations in eleven states all bordering each other. The finds have all been at several feet in depth. There are too many findings to be mere coincidental.
How and why these coins came to be where they are cause for much spec-ulation. The fact remains, the coinages found have all dated from as early as 450 B.C. to 90 A.D. to no later than 133 A.D. The answer is simple. There was a flow of people coming here from Europe, Middle East, and other places. The majority of the finds were of Jewish and Roman origins. Numismatics once again places history in an embarrassing position...Yes, coins tell the story. As late as 1982, the Bat Creek coins could still be seen at Smithsonian. I am not sure if this is still true.
However, Professor Barry Fell of Harvard, and a Professor associate of his, Professor Cyrus Gordon have verified the coins presence at that time. According to these men, there are numerous other artifacts that co-relate to these coinage finds validating the presence of people who carried them here from across the oceans in ancient times.
The Indian Cultural Center in Alburquerque is but one of many cites to validate this fact. For example, the Zuni Indians now know their lanquage is identical to the Libyians thanks to the efforts of Dr. Barry Fell and his associates. This of course means the Libyians of the Great Sea Peoples were once present here.
There are numerous places in New England that testify to the presence of ancient peoples from Egypt and others of Celtic origins. For example the Alogonquin indians were using Egyptian hyrogliphics in their written language long before Champollion deciphered the Rosetta Stone in 1798. A French priest of the 1500's made the discovery of their usage of these symbols and wrote of it in his diary. Remnants of these writings are in a museum the Merimac vicinity of New York as attested to again by Dr. Fell.
One last point; If we look at the biblical records of King Solomons cargo lists, we learn that his borrowed sea captains from Hiram of Tyre were circumnavigating this globe during his time. And if fact, were bringing silver out of Mexico back to him. Many facts too numerous to mention in an article of this nature testify to the thrilling facts of the truth of prophecies concerning the sifting of Gods people. See Amos 9;15 where the Lord has stated in so many words He would sift his people to the four corners of the earth, yet he would not lose one grain of them. - (Paraphrased)
Through all of this, it is thrilling to see how God has been at work among His children in all parts of the world. In this regard, I make one more reference to the presence of the old world civilization here in our hemisphere long before Christ was born.
Thirty five miles west of Los Lunas New Mexico in high desert there is a huge stone with Phoenician writing on it. My son and I did considerable detective sleuthing to find this stone after I learned of it's presence through the work of Dr. Barry Fell. We found this stone and photograped it with ourselves sitting next to it. Sure enough, there is Phoenician writing on it.
There are now five other Professors who work with dead languages who are in agreement as to the text of this stone. The text contains a portion of the ten commandments. These men have no axe to grind. They are scholars who risk their reputations with the school of anti-diffusionist groups. The evidence is overwhelming. Other teams of archeologist's have found evidence of old world presence here in the form of a salt encrusted Star of David in a salt mine in Central America dating to 400 b.c. This Star was 4 feet in height. My own research reveals the earliest known Star of David dates in the 600 B.C. period. It was found in Gaza. The further one cares to dig through the ancient debris of the past, the more thrilling is the knowledge 'old world' presence here in this hemisphere- and to my delight as a numismatist, I can truly say- Coins do tell the story!.
###
First RIGHTS RESERVED- COPYRIGHTED Feb 1983,-July 2005
|
|
|
|
Moderator
 Australia
16836 Posts |
An interesting article, but I must take issue with a few of your statements. Where did you get the information about this coin hoard? I tried to find it on the Internet, but couldn't get far. I did a Google search on "bat creek coins"... and came up with a copy of this article, and nothing else. Googling "Bat Creek" with "coins" and "found" came up with a bunch of fascinating websites, some pro-d, some anti-d. The main diffusionist archaeological discovery at "Bat Creek" is an engraved stone, found among Native American burial mounds. Some claim it to be ancient Hebrew, some claim it to be mediaeval Welsh, some claim it to be merely Cherokee script. To other's it's either fake or doctored. The late Barry Fell was a professor of marine biology at Harvard; his hobby, of writing populist publications about his interpretations of ancient writings, has been generally dismissed as sloppy work by "real archaeologists". The late Cyrus Gordon is a much more respected researcher in that regard. The Indian Pueblo Cultural Center website makes no mention of Libyan linguistic ancestry, that I can find. Wikipedia says that the Zuni language is indeed an "isolate" language with no known related languages - though it does mention the controversial hypothesis that it may be related to Japanese. The Star of David was not used by the Jews as a general symbol for Judaism until after 1000 AD; prior to this, the menorah (7-branched candlestick) was most often used. Native American use of a "star of david" would most likely be linked to native astrological cult practices. Coins are among the most crucial pieces of archaeologial evidence one can find. The discovery of a boxful of ancient coins, unambiguously placed in America by ancient visitors, would truly be a spectacular archaeological discovery. "Real archaeologists" would scramble to associate themselves with such a find, not form a vast conspiracy to marginalize and discredit it. I personally prefer not to believe in vast conspiracies.  Were there pre-Columbian east-west contacts? Sure. Very few folks nowadays seriously doubt that the Vikings explored and colonised parts of Newfoundland and northeast North America, and if the Vikings did it there's no reason others couldn't have done so before them. I'm just not convinced that it happened to the extent that the diffusionists claim.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1091 Posts |
quote: Originally posted by habiru001
Batcreek Vs Numismatics By Dewey Maggard
.....One last point; If we look at the biblical records of King Solomons cargo lists, we learn that his borrowed sea captains from Hiram of Tyre were circumnavigating this globe during his time. And if fact, were bringing silver out of Mexico back to him. Many facts too numerous to mention in an article of this nature testify to the thrilling facts of the truth of prophecies concerning the sifting of Gods people. See Amos 9;15 where the Lord has stated in so many words He would sift his people to the four corners of the earth, yet he would not lose one grain of them. - (Paraphrased)...
On this "last point"... I have a few questions... 1. What "Biblical" records of King Solomons cargo list are you refering too? By "Biblical" do you mean "ancient" or are you saying the records are in the Bible? If so, can you tell me where in the bible? 2. What a fantastic claim that "circumnavigating this globe"  happened at this time. This Re-writes History! I'm shocked that the ships of this era could survived the long journey. And "bringing back Silver from Mexico" in the days of King Solomon? Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof. Ah, but I see, there wasn't enough room in the article for all the "thrilling facts". Can you share with me some of these facts, here on this forum, where there is plenty of room? 3. I did look up the Biblical book of Amos chapter 9 verse 15, it reads... "And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God." (King James Version) I re-read the whole chapter and could not come close to your interpertation or Paraphase. Is that the correct Bible reference?
|
|
Valued Member
 United States
236 Posts |
quote: Originally posted by Sap
An interesting article, but I must take issue with a few of your statements. Go ahead- you may take all the issue you wish to- but I have given facts as they were recorded. I used to subscribe to the Biblical Archeology magazine-many years ago- and some of this info came from there- concerning Bat Creek. You mentioned Dr. Barry Fell, as a Marine Biologist- however, he was the founder of epigraphy and extremely good at it- He has been ridiculed yes, but history is beginning to learn that his translations are accurate. I could not give all my informational sources as some of them are biblical- and there are too many people that are prejudice or not sufficiently knowledgeable about the bible. Some are too willing to misconstrue remarks-- As to the Star of David.- this also came from the Biblical Archeology magazine- Not many people read this- because they do not like to get into the bible- and I am afraid have too many preconceived ideas. As to the Zunies having language identical to the Libyians for the most part- so that they can understand each other- Dr. Fell and 5 professors from other parts of that world all concur to this fact. I myself have been to the cultural center in Albuquerque and the section on the Zuni's 6 years ago made the statement to this fact-I read it myself. Now- I do not know if it is still there- Just as those Hebrew coins are no longer in the Smithsonian Museum. Yet, some of the linguists of with Dr Fell and Dr C Gordon were all in agreement to this. I have done years and years of research on early early Carthiginian presence here in North America and there is simply too much evidence to doubt it. There are bits and pieces to this puzzle that come straight out of the bible- but I left that out for many reason. I suggest if you want to satisfy yourself further on this subject- The works of Immanuel Velikofsky -in 'Ages in Chaos" or "World's in Collision' is a good place to start. ALso there is a member of the epigraphy society who worked with Dr. Fell by the name of Gloria Farley- I have studied her work and in fact know of some of the sights personally that are mentioned by her,. She has a web site called "in Plain sight" You will find it very interesting.-- By the way, This article was also published by Coin Masters several years ago- and also by WINS- I think Susan is a current member of that group and would know of this article in their archives. Now as it happens- Dr. Fell also mentions this batcreek hoard- so we must have had the same sources..--Also, when you go to google- and print my name, you will see that I have several other articles- and most of them are related to numismatics. --I have several articles written several years ago that are {"yes" very controversial-) It is my hope that the readers will do some research on their own- I am now almost 80 and simply do not have the time to try and put all the info in specific factual format-- research is the answer. Where did you get the information about this coin hoard? I tried to find it on the Internet, but couldn't get far. I did a Google search on "bat creek coins"... and came up with a copy of this article, and nothing else. Googling "Bat Creek" with "coins" and "found" came up with a bunch of fascinating websites, some pro-d, some anti-d. The main diffusionist archaeological discovery at "Bat Creek" is an engraved stone, found among Native American burial mounds. Some claim it to be ancient Hebrew, some claim it to be mediaeval Welsh, some claim it to be merely Cherokee script. To other's it's either fake or doctored.
The late Barry Fell was a professor of marine biology at Harvard; his hobby, of writing populist publications about his interpretations of ancient writings, has been generally dismissed as sloppy work by "real archaeologists". The late Cyrus Gordon is a much more respected researcher in that regard.
The Indian Pueblo Cultural Center website makes no mention of Libyan linguistic ancestry, that I can find. Wikipedia says that the Zuni language is indeed an "isolate" language with no known related languages - though it does mention the controversial hypothesis that it may be related to Japanese.
The Star of David was not used by the Jews as a general symbol for Judaism until after 1000 AD; prior to this, the menorah (7-branched candlestick) was most often used. Native American use of a "star of david" would most likely be linked to native astrological cult practices.
Coins are among the most crucial pieces of archaeologial evidence one can find. The discovery of a boxful of ancient coins, unambiguously placed in America by ancient visitors, would truly be a spectacular archaeological discovery. "Real archaeologists" would scramble to associate themselves with such a find, not form a vast conspiracy to marginalize and discredit it. I personally prefer not to believe in vast conspiracies. 
Were there pre-Columbian east-west contacts? Sure. Very few folks nowadays seriously doubt that the Vikings explored and colonised parts of Newfoundland and northeast North America, and if the Vikings did it there's no reason others couldn't have done so before them. I'm just not convinced that it happened to the extent that the diffusionists claim.
|
|
Valued Member
 United States
236 Posts |
quote: Originally posted by toast
quote: Originally posted by habiru001
Batcreek Vs Numismatics By Dewey Maggard
.....One last point; If we look at the biblical records of King Solomons cargo lists, we learn that his borrowed sea captains from Hiram of Tyre were circumnavigating this globe during his time. And if fact, were bringing silver out of Mexico back to him. Many facts too numerous to mention in an article of this nature testify to the thrilling facts of the truth of prophecies concerning the sifting of Gods people. See Amos 9;15 where the Lord has stated in so many words He would sift his people to the four corners of the earth, yet he would not lose one grain of them. - (Paraphrased)...
On this "last point"... I have a few questions...
1. What "Biblical" records of King Solomons cargo list are you refering too? By "Biblical" do you mean "ancient" or are you saying the records are in the Bible? If so, can you tell me where in the bible?
2. What a fantastic claim that "circumnavigating this globe" happened at this time. This Re-writes History! I'm shocked that the ships of this era could survived the long journey. And "bringing back Silver from Mexico" in the days of King Solomon? Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof. Ah, but I see, there wasn't enough room in the article for all the "thrilling facts". Can you share with me some of these facts, here on this forum, where there is plenty of room? 3. I did look up the Biblical book of Amos chapter 9 verse 15, it reads... "And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God." (King James Version) I re-read the whole chapter and could not come close to your interpertation or Paraphase. Is that the correct Bible reference?--Well Toast, I must congratulate you on your perception of getting into Amos 9:15- There are millions of people who haven't the foggiest about what we are talking about. For me to try to answer all your questions here on this forum probably is not the proper place-simply because there are people with preconceived ideas and they simply are unwilling to accept new truths. I will say this- The Bible does contain the clues as to where this cargo list comes from- (once every three years)AS time will permit me- if you care to communicate away from this forum on our own email address- I will be happy to do so- There are too many astounding shockers to put here- and I simply do not have the time to get that involved- But since you brought up Amos, and must therefore have some appreciation for the bible- I will be happy to give you some knowledge that in not well known. And what I give you can be backed up with tangible evidence or from Ancient Historical sources. (By the way, I have used Josephus as a source for some of my research-and articles) So If you go to my best email program which is myway.com and my address there is heaven4me2@myway.com then I will be happy to share with you some of the things I have learned. I also have a web site which will bring criticism- but please note- such noteables such as David Hall of PGCS advertises regularly on this site. I will give you the URl in our email exchange. So Toast, it is in your court now- if I hear from you asking for some of this info- I will share with you what I have.
|
|
Moderator
 Australia
16836 Posts |
The biblical references to Solomon's fleet and the cargo list can be found in 1 Kings 9:26-28, 10:11-12 and 10:22, as well as the parallel passages in 2 Chronicles (8:17-18, 9:10-11 and 9:21). The trade destination given in the Bible is "Ophir", and speculation about where Ophir and "King Solomon's Mines" might have been has gone on for hundreds of years; the consensus of biblical scholars is somewhere around Arabia, the east coast of Africa or perhaps India/Sri Lanka. There is, however, the reference to voyages returning every three years, laden with loot. Arabia isn't a three year round trip from Solomon's ports at the northern tip of the Red Sea. Ah, but it is if you go the 'long way round'. From the Wikipedia article on Phoenicia...according to Herodotus, a Phoenician expedition sent down the Red Sea by pharaoh Necho II of Egypt (c. 600 BC) even circumnavigated Africa and returned through the Pillars of Hercules in three years.Solomon's ships circumnavigating Africa is believable (though there's no direct evidence of this actually happening, either on the ground or in scripture). But a round trip to the Americas (or Australia, New Zealand, Vanuatu or any of the other exotic locales that have also been fancifully suggested for "Ophir")? Hmmm... Anyway, back to the coins in ancient America. Do you know what kind they were? Bronze, silver, gold? I'm assuming silver, because bronzes buried for 1900 years need a fair bit of archaeological TLC before they start to look anything like coins, and even a bunch of Army Engineers would have recognized gold coins when they saw them.  Silver coins from the Bar Kochba period (the Second Jewish Revolt), 132-135 AD, are quite scarce, though not as much so as similar coins from the First Revolt of 66-70 AD. The Sear catalogue (of Greek Imperials) puts Bar Kochba tetradrachms in the £600 to £5000 range - that's British pounds - with denarii in the £150 to £600 range. They are almost always overstruck on Roman coins, and studies of the undertypes on coins like this can provide valuable insight into the economics of the rebel state. First and second revolt coins appear at the top of this Wildwinds page. I have difficulty believing the Smithsonian (or anyone else) has a boxful of them sitting around, unexamined and uncatalogued, simply because they refuse to acknowledge their origin.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
|
|
Valued Member
 United States
236 Posts |
Sap, Please do not be so quick to discount what someone else has said on a given subject- You are not the last authority- Give the other guy some credit for knowing something..You have jumped to unwarranted conclusions. Now, If I were to tell you that I know where the land of Punt really is, you would no doubt immediately think me to be a lunatic- or even probably tell me so. Yet, I am content to know exactly where it is- The reason modern scholarship does not know is because they have an obdurate mind where it comes to biblical information- Josephus knew where it was--I can name another scholar who has given a clue to where it is. But the Bible gives the specific location.And this fact simply shows the sad fact that people simply do not care what the bible says. It is not popular for them to give the bible any credence. I am no stranger to any of your own hypothesis or findings. And I must say as you did to me- that I do take issue with them- but not to try and put you down- My goodness, you are surely entitled to what you think-- therefore, you need to allow the other fellow to have some intelligence- you are not the last word--believe me! So I am glad that you were stimulated with this story-- Your remarks do show a lack of much information that I have- So don't be so quick to put the other fellow down= It is not necessary for you to try and disprove what has been said. But what was written was done in good faith to bring stimuli-to the reader. This article has been previously published and there has been no numismatist, or reader to indirectly try to show me as being ignorant. There is a preponderance amount of evidence to show that people were here long long before the vikings,long before Columbus. Let me say to you once again,the coins mentioned in the Batcreek article were catalogued. This fact was put in print.--I will also say to you- that there are people who are loathe to give credence to anything connecting with the bible or that proves other people were here. There has been (Brass items found in s0-called Indian mounds) It takes tin to make brass (or zinc) how did it get there? And so Sap, relax, and let yourself discard some of these farfetched ideas that modern scholarship is pawning off on the uninitiated. For example, I can remember reading many years ago that Pontius Pilate was a myth. Yet, Archeology has produced a marble slab with his name engraved on it. Also they have produced Prutah coins that are his issue-(his name on them) They said, that these fellows didn't exist- King Agrippa,or the governors,Festus, or Felix- yet, I have coins of each of these rulers. They were saying that King Cyrus and King Darius were myths-just some names made up by the Jews- Well, The Englishman Rawlinson settled that once and for all in his decipherment of the Behistun stone writings. And so- what I am saying is this, In my own experience and studies-(I am near 80) I will take the biblical proofs over any modern scholar work including Encyclopedias- I have found it to be trustworthy above their work. There is Ogam script writing in many places throughout our country and Canada- This writing can be read-and is irrefutable proof of the presence of other people coming and going from this continent as early as 1700BC and possibly earlier. Yes, all you need do is study the work of Lionell Cason "the Ancient Mariner" to learn that there were certainly ships large enough to come here with much cargo.. Etc etc;
|
| |
Replies: 6 / Views: 2,811 |
|
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us | Advertise Here | Privacy Policy / Terms of Use
|
| Coin Community Forum |
© 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums |
| It took 0.41 seconds to rattle this change. |
 |
|