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Ric Numbers

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bobbyhelmet's Avatar
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 Posted 01/22/2011  06:08 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add bobbyhelmet to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I wanted to ask a few questions about these as I'm a bit confused by the whole thing. I should add I'm completely new to RIC numbers.

I've collected Roman coins since I was a kid but have never really been interested in IDing them down to this level. This was mainly due to the fact that the RIC books were expensive and when I started collecting (1990) I had little money and the internet was not so freely available or as info filled as it is now.

1. Does each coin and mintmark have its own number or are mintmarks ignored?
2. Is RIC the leader in the field or are there better catalogues?
3. Where can I buy them and for how much and is it worth it?
4. Are a lot of the coins on ebay IDed incorrectly as often I get a different numbers when using things like Helveticas tables?
5. Is there a complete set of Ric numbers in a searchable digital form (like Helveticas tables) I can buy or download? I do know Wildwinds has a lot of online records.

The final question is more general, how can mintmarks be attributed to specific mints and even specific years attributed to coins? Having studied Archaeology I understand how frequency distribution could indicate a mint but how can narrow years be assigned to coins? I understand how its done for COS nos and on other coins where a year of reign is indicated but unsure how its managed for others. Did the Romans leave records?

I get the impression that its all somewhat 'work in progress' and can be a bit fuzzy and grey and there is prob more unknown to us that known. Is this correct?
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16826 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2011  08:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't have any copies of RIC - they're expensive, and for a generalist like me collecting the whole set would be prohibitive. So my opinions on them are based solely on what I've read about them on the forums, and deduced from observations on discussion about the coins themselves.

1. Not only does each mintmark have separate numbers (the volumes covering the post-Diocletian period actually sort by Mint, rather than by Emperor), but each minor variation in inscription and design. Where the breaks in the legend occur also appears to be significant: a coin with FELTEMP REPARATIO would have a different number to an otherwise identical coin with FELTEMPRE PARATIO.

2. It all depends on which catalogue has the more comprehensive listing, or which catalogue lists that particular variety better. RIC is the most often quoted, but the British Museum catalogue (BMCRE) is sometimes quoted too, and for silver coins Sear's "Roman Silver Coins" (RSC) is quoted.

The main problem with the RIC catalogues is that they're not a unified whole - each volume was written at different times by different authors, who each had their own ideas on layout, sorting, rarity, categorizing and even exactly what qualified as a separate variety. Some of the older volumes have been (and are still being) re-written to try to make them more coherent as a unified series, as well as more comprehensive. Catalogues like Sear have the advantage of having just one author, so the whole Roman series is treated the same way.

3. You might find copies on ebay, Amazon, AbeBooks or other large second-hand book sources. Larger ancient coin dealerships like FORVM might also have copies for sale; in their case, when they have a full set of 11 books in stock (they currently do not), it would sell for $1275, with individual volumes currently in stock ranging from $97 to $290.

4. Identifying the correct RIC number for a particular type can be tricky, even for people who actually have the correct RIC catalogue, since in some RIC volumes attribution details are sketchy. But in most instances, I think incorrect RIC numbers are a result of taking shortcuts: a large number of ebay sellers are probably looking up a secondary reference such as Sear, Wildwinds or an auction catalogue, finding a coin that's "close enough" and reporting the RIC number that they've found as theirs - even if their coin actually has a completely different RIC number.

5. Just the list of numbers won't do you much good without adequate descriptions and/or pictures of what the numbers were. In short, you'd really need the entire actual RIC in digital format. Google Books has them, with the usual restrictions for accessing copyrighted works.

Quote:
how can mintmarks be attributed to specific mints and even specific years attributed to coins? Having studied Archaeology I understand how frequency distribution could indicate a mint but how can narrow years be assigned to coins? I understand how its done for COS nos and on other coins where a year of reign is indicated but unsure how its managed for others. Did the Romans leave records?

If the Romans ever left detailed Mint records, such as "In the year AUC 1007 there were 10 million antoninianii and 2 million denarii of the PRINCIP IVVENTATIS design struck in five mints throughout the Empire", they have not survived. And in truth, such records about specific types and varieties would have been impossible to collate, given the decentralized nature of coin design at the time. We don't have any kind of annual mintage statistics at all, not even the total face value of money minted - and some kind of records certainly would have once existed about that, since many of the emperors would have wanted to know at all times how much of their money was out there.

All we have in the historical records are the occasional references to coin designs and coin issues in the "popular histories" which have managed to survive the ages. By far the most comprehensive and detailed records and statistics we have about Roman coinage are the ones obtained from studying the coins themselves - they are far more numerous, and far more enduring, than anything written on parchment. That's why archaeologists like coins so much: they survive when so much else has been lost.

The short answer to this query is, indeed, "archaeology". We coin collectors rarely appreciate just how much effort the archaeologists have put into allowing us to precisely date our coins. Basically, they've had to work from the few coins that actually do have good specific dates on them or are otherwise datable (such as the few mentions of coinage issues and designs in the written records), and work backwards from those using hoards and other evidence to narrow down likely dates of issue. Much of this work has only been done in the last few decades. My 1980 edition of Sear has virtually no dates of issue given; my millennium edition Sears attribute dates for all coins, in most instances narrowed down to just one or two years.

Quote:
I get the impression that its all somewhat 'work in progress' and can be a bit fuzzy and grey and there is prob more unknown to us that known. Is this correct?

That would be a fair assumption. It's certainly a "work in progress" in the sense that new archaeological discoveries are constantly being made and new theories tested and proven (or disproven), all of which help to narrow down the chronological record even further.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
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 Posted 01/22/2011  09:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And, I should also add, if a coin collector back in Roman times had ever attempted to collate a coin catalogue or write down his observations about coins that could be collected, this has not survived either. All of our identifying cataloguing and attributing of Roman and Greek coins has had to be done "from scratch". Compare this to the ancient Chinese coinage series, for which several ancient and mediaeval editions of coin catalogues, as well as detailed official mintage figures for many years, have survived and can be matched up with what we find in the archaeological record.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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bobbyhelmet's Avatar
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 Posted 01/22/2011  11:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobbyhelmet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow - Thank you for such a detailed and no doubt time consuming response Sap. Have two thumbs up!

Very interesting reading and you more than covered all my queries, think I will put off buying any RICs until later. Its a shame that there is no single common style visual catalogue covering all the coins. It would be a huge amount of work and I doubt the value of the work needed could be recouped selling it to what would be a relatively small audience.

I would expect Wildwinds style of recording, if continued and updated in the coming years could end up surpassing the books in becoming the most useful and user friendly reference source.
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Meldercat's Avatar
Canada
268 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2011  2:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Meldercat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If I could add my two denarii ... Reading and Dating Roman Imperial Coins by Klawans has been a invaluble source. I picked up my used copy for $10.00.

I have the three new volumes of Sear Roman Coins and Their Values. I also have the older silver volumes.
Kinda of pricy but certainly nothing like the RIC volumes. I understand a 4th is in the works.

I have had a look at the RIC volumes and they definately are for the seasoned collector as there are very few pictures. I use WildWinds, Dirty Old Coins and Vcoins to do most of my research.

Considering they don't even have name types (AE2, AE3, AE4) for late empire coins my guess on detailed mint records would be difficult, if impossible, to find. Maybe someday.
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Meldercat's Avatar
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 Posted 01/22/2011  2:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Meldercat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh ya ... this forum has been great!!
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maridvnvm's Avatar
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2100 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2011  4:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Helvetica's tables are great in covering the areas that they cover and they go way beyond RIC. If I take Tacitus, for example, his coinage is covered in RIC V Pt. 1. It should be noted at this point that this is likely the worst volume of RIC that there is. Dane has taken RIC and added to it from other sources, such as LaVenera (a set of books documenting the LaVenera hoard, written by Dr. S. Estiot), which until recently provided much better coverage and more up to date research than RIC. This has since been superseded by "BIBLIOTHEQUE NATIONALE, Catalogue des Monnaies de l'Empire Romain T 12,1 : Aurélien, Tacite, Florien", also by S. Estiot and Dane has included much (if not all) on this information into the spreadsheet. This book alone would cost Euro 180.00. RIC V is awful and has many errors. I wouldn't recommend RIC V to anyone other than as a general overview. I won RIC V but also have the La Venera volumes and the BN volume above and would recommend the Estiot books to anyone wanting to specialise on the emperors that they cover but they are costly. Danes sheets are brilliant and I use them regularly and for simply finding references they are ideal.

By the way Wildwinds is now managed by Dane, of the Helvetica lists, after the passing away of Dave Surber who created Wildwinds.

The earlier RIC volumes (I - IV) are OK but the equivalent BMCRE books are better and more up to date and I would recommend BMCRE over RIC for these. One exception would be the new RIC II Pt. 1, which is the newest and most up to date RIC volume. For someone focussed on silver coins then the RSC volumes are great handbooks for references. There are equivalent Paris collection books for this period but I still prefer BMCRE.

The Sear books are overview and very high level and cannot easily be used for reference purposes as too many coins are not covered.

An interesting, new book is ERIC II, which is a handbook that has been written by Rasiel Suarez (of dirtyoldcoins) with the voluntary assistance of a small army of volunteer collectors. He has attempted to create a handbook that takes RIC, BMCRE, RSC and other sales sources and lump them into a a single volume to allow a reference to be found. It has been a huge undertaking and the result is a huge book weighing in at 9.2 lbs and is 11.2 x 8.8 x 2.5 inches in size. He has illustrated as many obverse and reverse types and possible but not individual coins by which I mean that they are general coins of the bust type / reverse types. Like RSC it doesn't attempt to to cover things like chronology etc. so it depends what sort of information you want from your reference books.

If you want to really specialise then there are some books out there that go all the way down to documenting a single mint but this is not the case for all the mints for all the time periods. One such example would be the Bastien series of books covering the output of Lugdunum.

I could go on and on and on here. If I can provide any more information on these and other references then I will be willing to go into more detail.

Regards,
Martin
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2011  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
bobbyhelmet: I am perhaps the only guy in the CCF that in fact DOES have a complete set of RIC. I acquired the set in 1974 over six months via a dealer in Sydney from Spink's in London. The first volume of my set was greatly expanded and updated after 1974.

That was when I was into Roman coins only. I sold my Roman coins just before I married in 1976, but you NEVER sell the tools of your trade. I kept RIC. Owning the books as an investment has been better than the coins!

I am a lot more like Sap now, and I, too, am much more of a generalist. The only thing different between Sap's collection and mine in general direction, is that his collection is much bigger than mine.

Having said all of that, I think a current collector of Roman coins would be better off with Sear' books (because of cost), in association with Wildwinds and VCOINS.

worldofcoins.eu is also strong in the areas that I am interested in and I have been a lurker on this site for some time, but I like the more friendly atmosphere here on the CCF. That's why I am part of the family here instead.
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Meldercat's Avatar
Canada
268 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2011  11:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Meldercat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks sel_91l. That's the direction I went. My collection is relatively small at 300 Roman Imperial and another 300 or so Medieval. I have seen some of the other members coins and WOW!
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jamesicus's Avatar
United States
167 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2011  12:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jamesicus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
True enough, RIC has its shortcomings one of which is the dearth of type coin illustrations. However, in my opinion, it is still the most comprehensive compendium of Roman Imperial coins extant (the sheer volume of cataloged coins is staggering) and the wealth of reference material accompanying each coin/mint series is invaluable.

Each volume is indeed a work in progress and numerous "not in RIC" coins are constantly being unearthed. For those who do not own RIC, my London mint search facility includes numerous coin listings that are not found in Wildwinds, Sear or other reference resources.

James
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  01:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Actually, there two other major works on Roman coins:

'Corpus Nummorum Romanorum', started by Banti and Simonetti, which attempts to photograph EVERY major Roman coin type, of which they are perhaps are about 15,000. The text is in Italian and English. Needless to say, this is a work in progress. I went to the National Library in Canberra and they didn't have a copy. The most complete copies that I know of of this work are in the State Library of Western Australia, in Perth, and with a major coin dealer in Sydney.

The other is the
'British Museum Catalogue', which I think may be of roughly the same size as RIC. Sear refers to the BMC often.

The 'Dumbarton Oaks Catalogue' is a good reference for Byzantine coins. This is is an auction catalogue.

Meldercat: see if you can get a copy of
'Coins of Medieval Europe' by Philip Grierson, publ. Seaby, 1991, ISBN 1 85264 058 8. It won't be cheap, but it will be worth it for your interests. It is one of the most scholarly researched books on the subject of European medieval coins that I have come across. Sap also has copy of this book.
Edited by sel_69l
01/24/2011 02:01 am
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jamesicus's Avatar
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167 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  05:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jamesicus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have both RIC and BMC (or BMCRE - British Museum Coins [of the] Roman Empire) sets and I cross-reference both. While the RIC volumes are expensive, the BMCRE volumes are much more so -- I paid $300 for BMCRE Volume I (Augustus through the civil wars) at a coin show several years ago -- but some BMCRE volumes provide in-depth information not found elsewhere: for instance, the extensive overage of countermarks in BMCRE Volume I is a precious resource. However, in my opinion, some RIC volumes provide better information than available BMCRE volumes. Such is the case with my area of study: The Britannic Coinage of Constantius (RIC Volume VI). One great virtue of BMCRE is the profusion of excellent coin exemplar photographs in the plates at the end of each volume. I believe most major Public Libraries have both RIC and BMCRE volume sets available for reference -- very important for in-depth research.

James
Edited by jamesicus
01/24/2011 07:06 am
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maridvnvm's Avatar
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2100 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  06:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I also have full sets of RIC and BMC(RE) as well as the RSC set. The BMCRE series stops at Pupienus so post that your best source is going to be RIC as a general guide. I generally find BMCRE to be better detailed than RIC but will pull out both RIC and BMCRE for cross referencing when attributing.
They are expensive books but are well worth the investment in the long run. I don't think that any online resource is going to provide the coverage that you can get with them.

There are some online resources that I also find invaluable:-

http://www.acsearch.info/ - which is a database of coins sold through many major auction houses

http://www.romanatic.com/ - which is starting with RIC I and RIC II and attempting to provide as many examples as is possible in an online databse.

For those interested in Midieval / Modern coinage there is an equivalent to acsearch - http://www.mcsearch.info/

Regards,
Martin
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bobbyhelmet's Avatar
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2838 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  2:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobbyhelmet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Again - fantastic responses! Feel free to claim a thumbs up

I have a lot to start looking at now! - have added the URLs to my favourites bar and will give them all a good look in the near future. Will keep the info on the recommended books and if they pop up for a reasonable price on ebay etc I'll grab them.

At the minute I only have one book, 4th Edition Roman Coins and their Values by Sear but I think its prob time to start adding to that.

Thanks again for the responses and ironically I think that this has undoubtedly proved one thing, as Meldercat says this forum has so far been by far the best source of knowledge for me.
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Meldercat's Avatar
Canada
268 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  3:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Meldercat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks to sel_69l for for the info on the Medieval book. Soon we won't have to worry about the cost of RIC, BMC, Sear, etc. as our community of Ancient coin collectors seem to be heading to a complete on-line resource. It's becoming rare not to find at least one example of a coin type some where on the web. There should be a central location for the non-web savvy.
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Meldercat's Avatar
Canada
268 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  3:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Meldercat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We also need an accurate ancient and medieval authentication service. Not nessesarily a grading service as there are many. Grading, in my humble opinion, is of less importance than whether the coin is a forgery. There are very few mint state ancients.
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