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Pertinax - Real Or Fake?

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Pillar of the Community
Bing's Avatar
United States
4253 Posts
 Posted 07/16/2011  3:37 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
In light of my previous posting, can anyone tell me if this AR Denarius of Pertinax is real? I don't have a warm and fuzzy about it, even though I tested it and it is silver.

Pertinax---Real-Or-Fake?

Pertinax---Real-Or-Fake?
Valued Member
aboarman's Avatar
United States
132 Posts
 Posted 07/16/2011  6:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aboarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, I'm going to throw in my 2 cents and say real, because it doesn't show the signs of modern casting, which would give the edge more of a rim. I could be totally wrong, though, so don't use my opinion as "official"
Here's some more information on this: http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset.../cdbgLwtyBI=
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2011  12:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can't exactly put my finger on it, but there is something about this coin that makes me feel it's not right.
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aboarman's Avatar
United States
132 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2011  12:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aboarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can you upload a pic of the edge?
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Bing's Avatar
United States
4253 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2011  12:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, but I'm not the greatest of photographers, but here it is.

Pertinax---Real-Or-Fake?
Pillar of the Community
Bing's Avatar
United States
4253 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2011  12:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe this a better pic

Pertinax---Real-Or-Fake?
Valued Member
aboarman's Avatar
United States
132 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2011  03:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aboarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, I'd like to add another 2 cents...
Pro-Real:
The edge appears to have an edge crease, or what looks like light, uneven seam closer to one side of the coin, which is caused by striking. Sometimes a seam on the edge is evidence of casting, but it would be straighter and more towards the middle of the edge.
No evidence of machining or gluing.
No clear signs of casting bubbles or polishing.
Pro-Fake:
There do not appear to be any casting bubbles on the surfaces, however, in the 2nd image, there is a small anomaly at the bottom of the coin that gives me pause. Could this be a casting bubble, or is it evidence of a sprue?
Also, and more importantly, is the recessed areas of the coin, like the eye for example, appear filled in. Also, check out the edge around the figure on the reverse - notice the "bleeding" around it? This could be lighting, though.
Have you weighed the coin?
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bobbyhelmet's Avatar
United Kingdom
2838 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2011  06:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobbyhelmet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I think its from the same die as this known fake:

Pertinax---Real-Or-Fake?
http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset...CGLlo0XNehY= Sold on ebay by user bestsells4u

See also other die matches:

http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset...vYlD9STqVI4= Sold on ebay by karakalas
http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset...EgMgK9wfSb8= Spink Sale 5010 lot 69 - Still listed on their site with its low(ish) sale price, very poor! http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=111464
http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset...Rhc6cYnQoEA= Sold on ebay by Numis18
http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset...nA3BO3zARo8= Sold on ebay by Grandotti
http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset...ett41ismcwA= Gerhard Hirsch Nachfolger auct 261 lot 718 - Looked on the site for the sale price but its missing meaning it didn't sell or the vendor removed it when it was pointed out to be a fake.
http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset...er1bf7JyVIQ= Sold on ebay by trump***

The reverse on yours JW looked good to me but I had doubts about the obverse, as with echizento it just didn't sit right with me.

Fakes really annoy me when they are sold by people who should know better - JW please do name and shame the people who sold to you if you still have the details and they wont/cant offer refunds and explanations.
Edited by bobbyhelmet
07/17/2011 07:14 am
Bedrock of the Community
sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2011  07:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For those who had a 'gut feeling' that the coin is not right: congratulate yourselves.

Ancient coin collectors need this defensive mechanism to protect themselves.

That 'gut feeling' almost always triggers the first step in an investigation.

I have walked away from a few ancient coins before, without having a conclusive reason for doing so. The retrospection in every case is that I feel that I did the right thing.

Pity. In some ways, you know that you must restrain yourself at coin shows from criticising a dealer's offer. When you know that your opinion may be wrong, but you may not be in a position to identify the reason with certainty. If either one of you in such a proposed deal is wrong, there is inevitably egg on face for someone.

In this case, I too, was unhappy with the texture of the metal surface on the obverse.

An then bobbyhelmet came to our rescue. He did the investigation.
Well done, bobbyhelmet.
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bobbyhelmet's Avatar
United Kingdom
2838 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2011  08:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobbyhelmet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cheers Sel - I do like putting my Columbo rain coat on every now and then!

Knowing someones been duped always takes the shine off a successful case though.
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Bing's Avatar
United States
4253 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2011  08:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had my doubts all along, but had no idea where to look to be sure. Since joining this forum I have learned a lot (but a lot more needed). As SAP pointed out in a previous thread, and as bobbyhelmet just pointed out, when in doubt investigate. I teach a class on body language and detecting lies with one of the things I always emphasize is to listen to your gut feeling. There usually is a reason for the feeling even though it may be something you just can't put your finger on. Statistics show that "gut feelings" are correct 70% of the time. I need to heed my own advice. As for identifying the seller, sorry to say I cannot. I have had the coin for way too long and I do not have the receipt. Rest assured I will ID any seller I find selling fakes as original coins. I admit it hurts to know I have been taken for a fool once again!! Hopefully with the knowledge I gain from the people on this forum, I will be foolish less often. Thanks again to one and all.
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