Is This Mexican 8 Reales Fake?

swamperbob (a member here) is the expert on counterfit coinage so if its a fake he will let you know, just give him time to see the thread and answer because he is not on here everyday but he is the best I have ever seen on detecting counterfits. I can tell you something looks funny to me but I have only seen a handfull of these coins and probably half of them were fakes and I not know it so I am definately not an expert on these things by any means, so please wait until swamperbob or someone else replies before you listen to me

oh yeah Sap makes a great point that I forgot to mention, some fakes are worth more than the originals so even if its deemed to be fake doesn't meant its worthless, I have seen swamperbob tell some owners they were lucky to have a fake instead of an original because of the price difference between the two

Bryan....Thanks to you and Sap for all the information!! I know what you are talking about, but I honestly don't think that is a seam. Maybe "Swamperbob" can clear things up for me. Just got on this Forum and think it's Great!!!

Frank

Hello and welcome - I am on vacation but I have some minimal access to a PC and just got Bobby's note on the 1839 coin. It is likely one of two things - 1. A mint made fraud - they are well known for the period 1834-1840 at Zacatecas (they were light weight) but made on real mint apparatus - classified as real by most collectors or 2. A fraud made from salvaged or stolen dies. The die type in this case is correct or nearly so. I am suspicious of the 9 in the date and there are lumps near some of the details so it could be a forgery that used a stolen or worn hub. (Hubs and dies were sold for scrap without being defaced until about 1837.) The weight is just too far off to be real. Does the edge design run true all the way around or does it reverse at the lap points. Many fakes or underweight mint frauds DO REVERSE. The fakes usually look like ((((((())))))) . The direction of the arcs reverses. I will try to log back on later for an update.

Frank - if the edge does not reverse - I would place it in one of the "outside" the mint counterfeit varieties.

But I have been thinking about the weight and there is one other possibility - a mined coin. In China and at certain times in Mexico - people would hollow out coins to extract silver and replace the metal with lead or zinc. The Mexican varieties often involved drilling into the edge of the coin from one single point but drilling along several angles (like a fan). They could extract up to half of the silver. So look for one or at most two odd looking edge segments. They often did this at the point of overlap and re-engraved the missing details. In China they often sawed off one side and then hollowed out the coin on a lathe. They could extract about 75% of the silver. The replacement was normally a lead plug. There is a line around the edge near one face that is rarely covered.

Proven copies of these two types are collectable and valued at $35 or so by specialists. A fully intact hollow coin is worth more than one cut to expose the fraud.

When I return home I will be glad to help with questions and reference materials on 8Rs both the Real and Un-Real.

Frankallen We are back from a very informative trip. So if you have any other questions just ask.

My wife enjoyed cruising to the islands but I had more fun in Mel Fisher's museum in Key West. I was surprised about how candid they were about "Authentic" not meaning "Real". Their cob coins guaranteed to be authentic are self admitted cast copies made from low quality silver bars salvaged from the wreck. So the coins are actually castings and the purity of the silver is UNCERTAIN. They were vague about how much "extra" metal is added to the pot before the "authentic" coins are cast. It could be like the infamous "World Trade Center" issues where a few ounces was stretched to a few hundred pounds before the medals were coined.

So much for the Mel Fisher guarantee seen so often on ebay. I was also surprised at the fact that they so easily admitted to what most people would call a fraud. The salesman even told a customer - just before the guy forked over $100 for one. The buyer was impressed at getting "old" silver. I wonder if anyone stops to consider that most all coins are made from "recycled" metal of some sort.