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Nero And Agrippina?

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Valued Member
aboarman's Avatar
United States
132 Posts
 Posted 08/05/2011  03:54 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add aboarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Has anyone ever seen this coin? I would like to sell it, but can't positively identify it, other than probably Nero and Agrippina.
Size is 28mm and weight is 7g, and is probably brass.
Any help or suggestions are much appreciated!


Nero-And-Agrippina?

Nero-And-Agrippina?
Valued Member
aboarman's Avatar
United States
132 Posts
 Posted 08/05/2011  2:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aboarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PS: The coloring on the coin is a water-based concoction that I applied to assist in identification. I know there are some of you that will be mortally offended by this. Well, get over it - it is helpful and doesn't do any harm to the coin
New Member
AtEase's Avatar
United States
28 Posts
 Posted 08/05/2011  3:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AtEase to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
aboarman, In a word;"WOW"!

The technique does assist in definition. I sure couldn't see anything with out that. Now I have to try that technique to the one I bought and shared on this site. Can you share how you do that process? is it right out of the bottle with a brush or cloth or what? By the way, the reverse is clear enough to define a hand and a rod (or staff).The obverse appears to actually have lettering. Darned I can't read any of it!

And is it on a "for sale" site yet?

Valued Member
aboarman's Avatar
United States
132 Posts
 Posted 08/05/2011  4:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aboarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey AtEase, it's just a mix of basic acrylic paints and water that you can find at any arts&crafts store, applied with a very precise brush.

First you coat the entire surface of the coin in a dark color, not quite black - dark brown or dark green is good - then let it dry for a minute or so.

Then, you take a light, contrasting color and very lightly brush over the raised areas of the coin. I like to use metal finish paints for this part, as it adds a realistic look, and it shines a bit more.

Let that dry for a minute, then take a toothpick (you will definitely need a magnifying glass) and go around coin removing the lighter color from areas that are not raised. Here, you're basically sharpening the picture, in a way.

I just stumbled upon this technique over the weekend. I've done it with about 20 coins so far, and I think I'm getting better at it. I don't know what the thinking is on it, but I'm thinking of doing the same to all my bronze/brass/copper ancients, unless they are already pristine. If people don't like it, they don't have to look or buy, right?
Valued Member
aboarman's Avatar
United States
132 Posts
 Posted 08/05/2011  4:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aboarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Almost forgot - On the obverse, I can make out
"NERO CAES ET A..."
I am assuming the full inscription would go something like:
"IMP NERO CAES ET AGRIPPINA"
However, since I can find no indication of that particular inscription appearing anywhere, I 'm thinking that could be incorrect. Perhaps this:
"IMP NERO CAE MATER AGRIPPINA"

The coin isn't for sale on any sites yet, as I have no idea whether it's worth selling, and whether there are others that can confirm it's identity. Of course, if there are interested parties, I would be happy to discuss it.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16867 Posts
 Posted 08/05/2011  9:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The paint does NOT help. At all. Pasting additional material onto the surface of a coin may obscure details that might be important, and it may have created details that aren't really there.

For those interested in "before and after" pics, here is the same coin, before paint.

As an example of "obscured details that might be important", we now can't clearly see the centration dimple, the reverse figure's bellybutton. This is an important detail, because it tells us it must be a provincial coin from somewhere on the Danube frontier, sometime in the third century - those, and pre-Roman Egyptian bronzes, are pretty much the only ancient coins with centration dimples prominent enough to survive this much corrosion.

Which means that the lettering you've painted on the obverse can't be correct - Nero is 150 years too early. An example of "created details that aren't really there".

If you're absolutely sure that it's a double portrait - and I can't really tell whether the "gap" between the two halves is part of the original design or post-mint damage - then I would suggest directing your search towards the city of Markianopolis - they issued a large series of double-portrait pentassaria coins in the mid 200s AD. See the Wildwinds page for this city for numerous examples.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Valued Member
aboarman's Avatar
United States
132 Posts
 Posted 08/05/2011  11:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aboarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Awesome! Thanks Sap. Only problem is, that the coin from before was a few layers ago and completely unrecognizable either way. Now, I am close to finding out more about the coin. Granted, some of the inscriptions are most likely incorrect, and yes, there are details that may temporarily be missing, but it worked.

Here's what I do know about this coin, without a doubt:
1. There are definitely 2 busts, with what appears to be some kind of pole/banner between them.
2. With or without the paint, the letters "NERO" are as plain as the nose on my face, just below the bust on the left. The other letters I can still make out, but not as clearly without paint.
3. There are 2 main figures on the reverse. One is the obvious central figure, facing figure #2, who is kneeling before figure #1.

Now here's where it gets freaky, and it's going to sound weird, but 3 other people here have seen the same thing under high magnification. Behind figure #1, there appears to be a crowd watching a crucifixion. There is no possible way to see this in the picture below, but it's there - even easier to see without the coloring. I'll try getting a shot through the high mag lens to upload.

It seems like this coin has been struck more than once. There was certainly a layer of metal over what we see now that had no detail whatsoever.

I plan to keep at it, and keep using my acrylics to help when needed. To each his own.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16867 Posts
 Posted 08/06/2011  02:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Umm, no. The coin in the earlier thread has already been stripped down to bare metal. Once you get there, no new details can appear. You can't strip entire layers of metal off an ancient coin and expect more details to magically appear. And there would not have been a "layer of metal over what we see now that had no detail whatsoever". Nobody ever took old coins, wrapped them in blank metal, and struck them again. In coins like this, most of the detail would have been preserved in the green patina layer, which is now long gone. Any new patterns you're seeing, either the "crucifixion scene" or the obverse lettering, is just the human eye forcing patterns into the randomness.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Valued Member
aboarman's Avatar
United States
132 Posts
 Posted 08/06/2011  03:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aboarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SAP - wonderful! I will wash off the coloring from the coin, and perhaps you can help me understand how there is more detail than when I started.

"Nobody ever took old coins, wrapped them in blank metal, and struck them again."

Ummm, yes. It happened all the time. Septimus Severus did it for political reasons, Trajan to cheat the value of the coins, rebel Israelis who obliterated the faces on Roman coins and re-struck, and the barbarians for any combination of reasons. But you're right, they didn't take old coins and wrap them in blank metal like a burrito. And that's not what I said, you did. I said the coin appeared struck more than once, which would explain some things.
Of course I'm sure you already know all this, which makes one wonder why you would be so quick to dismiss the notion out of hand. Maybe you just wanted to show me who's boss lol. Ok, you can be boss man.

As for this coin, there was no green patina layer when I found it. It was a chunk of rock and metal, almost shaped like a football, with mostly rock on the outside that had fused to the outer layer. There was no detail whatsoever. I am not blind.

If you take a close look at where the chunk has come off the edge, you'll notice that it's perfectly round. I'll post another pic of that as well. It looks like there's - lo and behold - evidence of a previous coin there that someone used as a base or something!

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AtEase's Avatar
United States
28 Posts
 Posted 08/06/2011  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AtEase to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
wow (small "beginner wow verses "knowledgeable persons WOW"), I definitely see the letters "NERO" on the inverse (front in people speak), and If the "cross" is on the reverse (back side in people speak) It would be seen by me as being at about wrist height, right hand side (2:30 am or pm. In what appears small defined dots.

But I also went to the site that SAP pointed out and looked at the whole page of coins and found at least 6-8 "belly button" holes ("centration")examples with two faces. And that's a good case also. Now I will say WOW! This is very interesting. Two people with document-able information regarding this coin and both are far opposites.If all evidence were presented at this point I would have to give "aborman" more points. The word NERO is most assuredly there on the lower left obverse. Of course please understand I am NOT any degree of expert on coins from any era. Come to think of it, after all these years, I'm not an expert on anything.
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aboarman's Avatar
United States
132 Posts
 Posted 08/06/2011  7:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aboarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Update. Following up on the lead from SAP (thank you, sir), I think I have a match, or something very close. The weight, composition, and diameter are very close, and there are a number of matching details.

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/...ov_471cf.jpg

However, I stand by my assertion that this coin is a re-punch, that was originally a Roman coin minted under Nero. In addition to the reasons enumerated previously, I also noticed the letters "SC" on the reverse of the coin, on either side of the figure. They are hard to make out in the photo, but pop right out when viewing in person. And, the letters "NERO" are still plainly visible, with all colors removed.

Thank you again for your help, SAP - I hope you know I was just yanking your chain earlier...
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