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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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The preferred submitters have their coins put in 2 piles. One pile gets a 69, the other a 70. It's that simple. Thats really not how it works Quote:
don't like your coin's grade, crack it out and resubmit until you get what you want. Again that really isn't true, if you tried enough times you may get lucky and get a slight bump but you cant just break out things and keep sending them in until you get what you want. If you dont like them thats fine, but non of the reputable TPGs operate in any manner like that. Edited by basebal21
02/04/2013 11:51 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1302 Posts |
what I said a few posts earlier is how it is. you can take it to the bank. the rest is urban legend and cynicism.
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
what I said a few posts earlier is how it is. you can take it to the bank. the rest is urban legend and cynicism.  You gave a very good description of the grading process. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4901 Posts |
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These things have spots and toning occurring after encapsulation that is really messing things up on the resale end o these coins. I'm sure you know that the 70's are protected by a grade guarantee (from NGC and PCGS). If the spots contribute to a drop in grade they will replace or purchase your coins at market value. I have done this quite a few times with NGC. I should add that I have had a gazillion graded ASE's and have never seen one tone in a slab...probably a rare occurrence Edited by Foxwoods Man
02/05/2013 07:26 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1721 Posts |
If you build it, they will come.
If you grade it 70. they will overpay.
I have 2 or 3 Eagles graded MS70's and I have never paid over spot. Like my friends here say:
"Buy the coin, not the holder."
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2311 Posts |
True, you only buy the coin not buy the holder. If you see a coin labeled MS-70 with a mark would you buy it? No because it's not really Ms-70.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7840 Posts |
...it's only one group of people's opinion, based upon the training they received and whoever cuts their paychecks.
If you look hard enough you will find fault in everything. I am sure that I am plagiarizing someone.
Edited by oih82w8
02/05/2013 2:31 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10038 Posts |
I had this same question when I got back into the hobby a couple years ago. Two of my friends have worked for PCHS graders in the past. On separate occasions, and at different times, both of them have said that since the graders are paid for the amount they get through in one day, human error is a lot more prevalent than anyone likes to admit in these companies. Another thing I asked about was resubmission. The one friend told me of a quarter submitted/cracked out 7 times until it hit the grade he desired. He said this is not a rare thing at all with borderline coins that will make a much larger profit in a higher graded slab. I was also told by my local coin dealer that he submits monster boxes and get around 30% returned as MS 70 from each box. He suspected this meant they were just pulling pieces out of the box and labeling them. When he started asking other big dealers who do the same, he said that they reported the same kind of percentage returns consistently. So although this is not proof, he was the one who said he suspected his guess is correct. The other thing my one friend told me, and agree with since I worked with such a machine in a QC dept., is that the tech to have an impartial machine grade coins has been out there for over a decade. in fact I think it was PCGS who spent a lot of money towards this in the 90s. However, they never implemented it. I admit I am believe the tech was not implemented right away so their future business could be assured. How? I think one day some TPG is going to come out with this *NEW* (dinosaur) tech as a sales gimmick saying that they can now remove all human error. They will pitch it to collectors that they can now have the ACTUAL grade of their coins for only $XX.XX -- "How can you possibly sleep at nights not knowing if their coins are accurately graded?!" After decades of this, they will say they have developed even better algorithms for the computer to make its judgements by and market things this way... ad nauseum How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halveshttps://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2 |
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New Member
 United States
47 Posts |
yep I agree with most of you. I still hate seeing spots on my ms70 eagles from pcgs and ngc.
if a coin show ever comes to the tampa bay area I would love to take the coins in and ask why this spotted coin is ms70 and see what happens.
till then I am staying with my NGC brown label ms 69 eagle collection including the W mint marks. I just like um.
thank you for all your input !!
see ya
john
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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I still hate seeing spots on my ms70 eagles from PCGS and ngc.
if a coin show ever comes to the tampa bay area I would love to take the coins in and ask why this spotted coin is ms70 and see what happens. Theyll say that the spots werent there when they graded them and showed up over time from the way the plancets were cleaned. They arent as bad as the maples but I agree that it is annoying. At least PCGS will buy them back though if that happens and knocks the grade down, no clue what theyd pay you though |
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Valued Member
United States
131 Posts |
This is a timely thread. On Thursday, I went to my coin dealer and we discussed this very topic. I am extremely lucky, my coin dealer is incredibly reputable and honest.
He saves up until he has about 100 coins, silver and gold, to submit at one time. He showed me a few of them, and then I asked him the following question:
"What do you think they'll grade?"
His reply:
"I have some 4's, 5's, and maybe a few 6's. (MS 64, 65, 66)." I asked 'What about higher than that?" He said "Maybe, once in a while you hit one like that."
Grading is largely, key word 'largely,' an objective standard. However, there is an artistic component to grading. You really see where that comes in when you start talking about the difference between a MS 65-66, and grades higher. Certain coins - for no objective reason you can articulate - just strike you as better than others. Maybe it's the way they catch the light, maybe certain features are so razor sharp, or the way the fields are are certain character of smoothness. When you get to grades MS-65 and above, there may be no real discernible difference between a 66 and a 67, or there might be. Again, it's a bit of an art at that point.
While it is good advice to say 'buy the coin, not the holder' - and one I ascribe to, the fact is that number makes a major difference financially. So there will be an incentive to have 'perfect' coins. The reality is a truly 'perfect' coin is extremely rare, whereas an MS-70 isn't nearly so rare. Hence, it is a bit of a stock market. Perception of a grade is just as important as the 'actual' grade at those levels. Since the resulting difference in one grade point can be thousands of dollars, you are necessarily taking a risk.
I do like the 'investment' component of collecting, however, ultimately, I buy what I like. I also do not become overly attached to a number grade. My current penny collection (59-2012) is all MS. Are there any 70's in there? Maybe, I don't know. But an inherent part of investing is risk. And that 'risk' is quantifiable as the art of grading when it comes to coins.
In general, I buy what I like, and don't worry about the number overly much - unless there's a huge price jump between grades, in which case, I go for the best looking coin in the lower grade.
Perfection is nice, but not realistic in the world we live in.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1227 Posts |
I collect from circulation, so to me the concept of grades and numbers is nothing but a handy shortcut when describing my coins here on the forum (case in point, I pull a 1929 cent from my till and people get excited. I pull a 1929 AU cent, and everybody gets REALLY excited). What follows is 100% personal opinion: The concept of these high, hairline grades is ridiculous to me. I've seen XFs I liked better than MS--they have character, charm, and sometimes the wear creates new and interesting features, like wheatstalks that look gilded or my beloved IHC that has toned from top to bottom progressively so it looks like a sunset. On the whole--and I put it that way because there are exceptions, like the Walking Liberty--I like my coins circulated. Not worn down to basal, but certainly you can tell that they've been around the block; VF-XF is my ideal grade (although I have a pretty awesome IHC that would grade, at best, G-4). To me the concept of an MS-70--a coin never touched, never breathed on, never clutched in some kid's fist to buy a soda or play pinball, never carried in some man's pocket while he traveled--is beyond ludicrous. There's nothing there. It's just a hunk of metal with a picture on it. No character, no story to tell. If you're happy with lower grades, don't let anybody tell you that you're wrong. I don't tote around something called the Rescued Natives Tribe because I'm a fan of MS; these are coins that were abused and have found a home where they will be loved for, not in spite of, all their little imperfections. If you must have the best of the best of grades . . . well, I don't really get it, but the hobby has enough room for you and me both, and your joy in finding a coin you love is my joy, too. |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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The reality is a truly 'perfect' coin is extremely rare, whereas an MS-70 isn't nearly so rare. It really depends what youre talking about. For business strikes and older coins yes it was rare if any even got there. For modern NIFC coins though a lot of them really are perfect. Our manufacturing and technology really has gotten that good for coins and really anything when you look at it. It wont be too long (10-20 years maybe less) until perfect NIFC coins are the norm and the non perfect is the exception |
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Valued Member
United States
125 Posts |
@ninamason I see how you feel. I am one of those people that will be happy with taking in coins with lower grades, and I just love the older coins that have faces that only a mother would love, because no one else cares about or appreciates the character of their old, worn out selves. If I saw an MS 63 or something large cent with full red (not sure that even exists), I'm not sure if I'd even feel like it's real enough to be worth owning. All a coin like that must have done it's entire life is sit around in tight storage and do nothing. Not a very interesting life story for a coin of that age! That's just the way that I see things.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1227 Posts |
Derek, that's exactly it. Someone out there would look at my sunset IHC and freak out because it's very obvious that at some point in its life, it had to be cleaned to have toned the way it has. Me? I think it's beautiful. So what if it's never worth more than a buck because of the cleaning? It's a gorgeous conversation piece and it's simply lovely--and imagine the stories it could tell about how on earth it managed to tone back that way and what the circumstances must have been! |
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Posted 02/05/2013 12:13 am
