CAC Opinions?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm going to assume you are not over the age of 50. Back in the late 80s, and early 90s this was a very common practice amongst dealers.

http://www.usrarecoininvestments.co..._trading.htm

Thats really just misinformation.

The only people that know what a dealer sent to CAC are the dealer and CAC. Theres 50 different ways for a dealer to unload a coin without it being public if they only want to only sell CAC or high end stuff.

The reality is big dealers do better on submissions to TPGs and CAC because theyre more selective. Theyve seen more coins in their career and have more experience which allows them to be more selective in what they send off and have a bigger stock to pick from. The dont get better results because theyre a dealer, they get better results from their experience.

CAC members can call and ask about why any coin didnt sticker and theyll tell them. Its all out in the open. Sometimes theres an issue you didnt see, other times its as simple as it would sticker one grade lower.

Theres no collusion and honestly suggesting it suggests that you arent familiar with JA/CAC or why he started it. CAC does also actively engage in helping people recover money when they get scammed for large amounts with coins which they should be applauded for.

To expand on what Tbone posted the purpose of CAC was not only to tighten up grades but help identify sight unseen buying which all the major dealers do. It allows them to offer things that they wouldnt be able to otherwise and increase their sales. JA did an interview about how important it is to identify high end coins for their grade which is a fantastic read. Back before they started the coins at the low end of a grade were dragging down the prices for the high end ones because a dealer didnt know which one they were going to get. What CAC has done is allowed those strong coins to flourish on their own merits instead of being held back by the low end ones or the barely make the grade ones with sight unseen buying.

Heres the interview with him which I would recommend everyone takes a couple minutes to read. http://www.caccoin.com/cac-in-the-n...urice-rosen/

I would strongly suggest looking more into John Albanese though. The number of people that have dealt with the level of quality and quantity he has is incredibly small. I would actually say no one has been more influential on the hobby in our lifetime and probably much longer than that given the three companies hes had a hand in founding.

Like Superdave mentioned everything they sticker is backed by their own money. You can sell anything right back to them with a sticker, unlike a TPG it doesn't even have to be an error you can just outright sell it. Hes not doing anyone any favors at his own expense. They have made mistakes in the past and they quietly buy it back and make it go away when they see something with their name on it they changed their mind about.




Yes and no. The whole series including the uncir silvers has close to if not over 100k graded by pcgs and ngc combined at that grade level. Some are more likely than others to have been sent in but you can safely assume a significant percentage has been sent in at that level. The sticker can be the difference of 100 dollars or more in sale price depending on the date and mint mark. If you look at the CAC pop you can further break it down and see a lot of those 1000 stickers ended up on the easier to get D mints that had a higher quality overall.

Using the 1971 P MS 66 as a case study PCGS has 56 graded at that level and NGC is likely around the same if not more. Being a 4 figure coin this is a coin where most of them have probably been submitted with a little over 100 examples graded. A CAC on this one is a good value jump so the incentive is certainly there. Out of those 100 plus only 11 have stickered. Even if you say only half of them have been submitted thats only 1 out of 5 stickering. Thats a pretty low rate and its likely more like 1 out of 8 or 9.

The 76 P Type 1 has 477 65s and 23 66s from PCGS and again double the number to count NGC ones as well. CAC has stickered 0 in 66 and 9 in 65. Theres a good chance every MS 66 for that one has come across their grading floor at some point.

Its not that easy to get things stickered especially rare and high end things. You can find similar type numbers across a lot of series when controlling for the grade levels and price ranges that are almost assured to have been submitted at some time. Even assuming only half were submitted you still end up with a low stickering level.

They dont say when a coins been rejected because they dont want to create a bias against them. A low percentage are over graded just like a low percentage are undergraded, most are accurately graded though. Not stickering doesn't mean its over graded, just that its not a premium coin for the grade. It can be an accurately graded coin just on the low end of the scale that would sticker a grade lower since it would be very strong for the next grade down.

Its true not every coin has been there and there are premium coins that just havent been put in front of them that would sticker. However, the more expensive the coin is the less likely it is they havent reviewed it at some point even if the current owner didnt send it in.

Buffalo, the "sight unseen" part is where you go to your dealer and tell him you want, say, a nice 1925 Saint in MS65. He doesn't have one, so he calls his buddy across the country (another dealer) who*does* happen to have one. Buddy ships the coin, your guy ships him $15k because like all dealers Buddy needs the cashflow.

Since you can trust the grade sight-unseen, the coin is good and you like it and buy it. That's where the sight-unseen part comes in. It's the dealer-dealer end, and it's why for all it's done at the retail level, CAC wasn't created with you and me in mind.

A seller absolutely loves CAC. A non-CAC stickered coin isn't going to lose value. It's still (supposedly) the grade PCGS/NGC assigned it. A CAC stickered coin only adds value.

A buyer hates CAC. It takes a little of the "skill" away from cherry picking the best of the best. I've seen some dogs in CAC stickered holders that could be beat easily. CAC has already (supposedly) identified that coin as being top XX% for that grade. Not only do you lose some of that cherry picking, a CAC stickered coin is now going to cost your through the nose even if it isn't better than a non-stickered coin.





I personally think it was and still is a stupid thing. To me it just keeps driving coin prices up and puts a lot of little guys out of contention and keeps new people from ever progressing. I understand why it was created (besides making money) but seriously.......I'd never buy a 72 Chevelle SS 454 sight unseen, why buy a $50k coin unseen? Why buy anything unseen except bullion?

For the guy that started it though, an amazing idea.

Probably why I detest the whole idea Ssup.

I inquired about a coin and was told "it just left to get CACed" (he is one of the dealers who apparently gets them all beaned and it wasn't a "out HOPING to get one" either, then once it was back POW $50 more added to the price. No longer in the rhealm of worth haggling for even. A viable coin became NOT! Same coin, different collectability. STUPID IMO

burks is spot on, I wouldn't buy a car sight-unseen - so why would I buy a $50K coin that way? Idiotic in concept and execution.



WOWSER DVCollector. That graded a 58? I don't know if I'd give it a 50 even. Lots of wear on the feathers, headdress, only 1 full diamond showing and just a hint of 2 others (PCGS photograde shows at least MOST of all 4 diamonds on ALL AU grades BTW) and considerable wear all over. My grade would be a 45 on it TOPS.

But the point is that CAC isn't some magic "sight unseen" phenomenon, IMO they are fallable and the whole idea is daft!

I don't see how they are losing money with the volume they are doing. You're talking $12.50 a coin. Say they do 20 coins an hour (easy to do considering they don't have to worry about damaging them). That's $250 a hour for one person. Now I know they don't do that every day but I fail to see how they are losing money.

Why would anyone work for a loss? Especially the volume they are putting out. It doesn't make sense.

JimmyJames posted:



The + is more like an added .5 to the grade, than an indication it is top X%. It is a way of creating 65.5, 66.5 etc. for high end gem grades ( tho I have seen 58+ and lower 60's so it is just a way to squeeze more grades into the UNC category mostly ). NGC's * might be more like CAC tho. All little gimmicks to create more $.

I will say PCGS is rather stingy with the +'s overall tho. Their stats show that of the 2.18 million coins they've graded in the last year, only 51 thousand got +'s. I realize that only a small % of those submitted are even eligible by grade-level, but at 2.3% they aren't exactly throwing +'s out like crazy.

The reason I said it was more like a .5 is that is what weight it is given within the PCGS registry system, by points. So if a 65 gets 65 points, a 65+ gets 65.5 points in their OWN SYSTEM.

I would find it interesting to know what exact percent they give + to of say newly graded MS60 and above coins. Overall %'s are somewhat meaningless as are totals as they went so long before implementing the +'s.

I've also read elsewhere that a + was considered "almost" the next grade up, not top X% of the current grade. That would explain why there can be coins that are 68+ when there are no 68's in that coin. How can you grade coins as in the top X% when there are NO OTHERS graded? That would be inconsistent and plain screwy! Saying that one 68 they graded was "almost a 69" in technical merit, and thus got a +, makes more sense.

So you could have all coins graded in a grade be +'s, whereas if the definition meant some top X% implied then there could only ever be a small % at a + in any particular grade.

JMHO