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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
I also agree that the 70 point system or something simular is needed. There is just "too" much to be simple. The old system of AG, G, VG, F, VF, EF, AU and MS leaves too much room to wiggle. All AU coins are not equal. Most people can spot the difference between a slightly worn coin and simple cabinet rub, yet both fall into the AU catagory. I do not however agree with "market" grading. A rare coin does not need to be adjusted. The 1933 Saint is a perfect example. PCGS stated matter of factly that they would grade the coin MS-65 long before actually holding the coin in hand. This coin with the dig in the leg would have no chance of a 65 grade if any other year. The part that makes even less sense to me is the fact that no matter what grade this coin was, it would not effect the value. The simple fact is that 1 is legal to own. Grade has nothing to do with value. Early American Copper (EAC) has a good strict system for early coppers. Their standards are based solely on the coin. Susan has been touting the Anacs standards here lately, and for the most part she is right. Anacs is correct more often than not. However, it is the dollar that makes the grade. I am guilty of cracking slabs to get more value out of them. With that said, if I believe that an Anacs or whomever graded coin in a MS-64 holder will grade MS-65, I pay more than 64 money for it. I have a good idea on which grading company will grade which way. I send coins to NGC and PCGS pretty frequently and rarely am I off the mark. If a coin needs a push, I will submit it through a much larger dealer. While I do not agree with this type of arrangement, I play the game by the rules offered. It is commonly known that some companies get better treatment. While this is not right, it is the rules that we all deal with. Higher valued coins also get better treatment. Technical grading is a great idea for a baseline, and could even be done electronically, but eye appeal is something that has to be judged by the buyer and seller. What I find appealling, you may not. Some love toning, while others wouldn't give you an extra nickel for it. If price guides would reflect technical grading instead of highest prices paid, that would help a bit. Let the buyer decide if the eye appeal adds to the value. I met with a dealer yesterday who was offering a 1797 Dime with 16 stars. There were 25,261 total minted between the 13 and 16 star varieties and very few are seen on the market today. There really isn't a price guide that reflects this coin. When you own one, you set the price and wait for a buyer. All "rare" coins are like this. We don't need market grading for this type of coin. State Quarters on the other hand rely totally on "hype". There is no real value behind the numbers and people are taking advantage of this fact. I routinely offer coins that are priced far above any price guide. This can be done because you cannot simply call any dealer and find one. I have sold many 1 of a kind coins and coins with populations in the hundreds. Anytime you find a coin with a survival rate of a hundred or less, throw away your price guide and dig deep in your pockets. This seems to be disregarded in the token market though. CWT and HTT can be bought for pennies on the dollar if worked properly. You can easily buy some with populations in the twenty's for very little money. It would not be hard at all to corner a bit of this market. Anyways, back to the topic. We need grading as there is just too many ways to take advantage of people. We just need a hard and fast system that is properly regulated by an independent party. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts |
Perhaps a limit of fifty years old on coins that can be graded would be a good starting point!!
would a standardized grading system be a good thing ?
What would happen to the free market competition?
I ask these questions because our free market system where monopolies are Illegal is intended to to promote honesty !!
it allows for a customer to check and balance a business, service based upon quality, service and reliability.
a standardized system would by its very existence do away with any real significant differences in the market place .
Just a thought .
Rick
Edited by Metalman
07/23/2005 3:49 pm
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Pillar Of The Community
3147 Posts |
Boy do I love a good honest topic! We have really opened a can of bees here and its a can that should REMAIN open! I fully understand ND's remarks concerning the classics or those one of a kind coins. Boy do I wish I had a truck load of them! My complaints with the whole industry started with modern coins(after 65) and the grading companies constant HYPE concerning high grade clad coins. It has spiraled out of control since their inception and at times it is very difficult not to get caught up in all of it! We are here out of our tremendous love for coins, the hobby, collecting or investing. For what ever reasons WE are all involved and for the most part, unless you have a great dealer (I do) you are on your own to make educated decisions until some sort of standards are set throughout the industry. Personally I don't see anything on the horizon but appreciate ND, and those like him, who are sticking their necks out in an effort to make things better! If it can be done I am all for it but.....can we live long enough to see it?
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New Member
United States
8 Posts |
We should be grateful we don't get as much government as we pay for.
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Valued Member
United States
157 Posts |
Hi again ND: You're right when you point out some of the problems plaguing the coin hobby today, but the future may not be as bleak as you think. I know back in the 1960s, Lincoln cents and Indian Head cents were very popular. Some unethical individuals saw a fast buck by "whizzing" nearly uncirulcated coins, giving them the appearance of BU specimens. When the whizzing scandal was fully exposed, many disgusted collectors forsake coins. The gloom and doom prognosticators said coin collecting was history. They were wrong. In the 1980s, fradulent telemarketers victimized huge numbers of customers (including yours truly). Lawsuits ran rampant. Headlines screamed. The gloom and doom prognosticators said coin collecting was history. They were wrong. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, shady promotors who used the backdrop of the Salomon Brothers reports and other Wall Street investment houses, drove prices for high grade material (but not rare) sky high. When the excrement hit the fan, prices for the same coins plunged by 70-80%. Again, the gloom and doom prognosticators said coin collecting was history. They were wrong. Today, in spite of our problems, I've never seen such a vibrant, alive market. Still, there are the gloom and doom prognosticators saying coin collecting will soon be history. I predict they will once again be proven wrong. I'm not suggesting we just ignore the issues of counterfeiting, inconsistent grading, etc., but I hold an optimistic view of the future. US coins have so much appeal, so many connections to our past, and are so alluring, that there will always be millions of devotees to the hobby. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
The future is not set in stone, but we are certianly on a slippery slope. Of course, my crystal ball doesn't seem to be working correctly, so I cannot accurately state what the millions of new collectors will do once our coinage becomes stagnant again. In the late 60's after the silver was removed, collecting as a whole dropped. Through the 1980's no one was reaching into their pockets and pulling out anything of interest. It is still very easy to find Jefferson nickels dated in the 50's and 60's in pocket change as the design had very little change over the years. Simply it is boring. The wave that the State Quarters and Westward Nickels brought will be dying out very soon. Congressional leaders are working overtime to kill any future design efforts. Each leader that I have spoken with has ANY DESIRE to be linked to taking a President off of the coins. Even the push for Reagan got killed. That just goes to show you how petty and political this business is. (I for one am glad that it did not happen). Anyways, many new collectors have NO clue that our coins will once again become stagnant. They think that change will continue to happen every few weeks for the rest of their lives. Face it, American's demand change in every aspect of our lives. We need it as much as the air that we breathe. For whatever stupid reason, the men and women on Capital Hill seem to be living their lives with rose colored glasses on. They proudly proclaim the fact that 1 in 3 Americans are collecting coins, but fail to realize that it is simply based on new designs. DUH! If past performance is any dictator, our leaders will follow the same stupid logic. In 1965 they removed mintmarks to keep collectors from hoarding coins. The fact that people were hoarding silver escaped these mental midgets. Ask anyone that started collecting after 1999 what they think will happen to our coins in five years. Ask the average person if they know that the Nickel will return to Jefferson and Monticello. Ask if they know that the 2006 Nickel will be a permanent design that their own great grandchildren in 2065 will be forced to look at each day. Today we as dealers and collectors have to search for the most insignificant detail to create a stir. Even with multiple changes in designs every few weeks, it still takes a die crack or filled die to create interest. Look back to the early part of the last century and people collected coins because they were beautiful and artistic. Today they are mediocre at best. Today the headlines read Butchered Bison, Doubled Die this that or the other, Extra Leaf, and so on. Where is the staying power? How many 19th century coins suffer from die gouges or scratches? Are they making headlines? Do they command outragous money? Anyone who collects Shield nickels knows that it is harder to find one that doesn't have die cracks than those with them. Yet today, it is all the rage. Where will these coins be tomorrow? Even today the extra leaf quarter has lost its luster. The prices fall and the novelty wears off. Ultra graded modern coins will have the same effect. While a MS or PR 70 State Quarter is all fine and dandy, it will not hold that effect for a long period of time. It will not hold the same fascination as the 3 legged Buffalo, the 1955 DDO Lincoln, the 1922 Plain Lincoln. These coins have stood the test of time. True error coins that all seek. I look at today's coin market like I do with TV sitcoms. When a show nears the end of its life, they start adding characters to help the show along. 99.9% of the time, it simply marks the beginning of the end. I do not think that this will mark the end of collecting as a whole. Classics will always be classics. Morgan dollars, Saints, Buffalos, Winged Liberty Dimes will always be collected. They will always have a market. They do not require lofty grades, marketing hype, television shows, or even headlines. They are simply the bread and butter of coin collecting. When someone looks at the beauty of these coins, they will want them in their collection. Edited by national dealer
07/24/2005 11:20 am
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Pillar Of The Community
3147 Posts |
Very well said ND! Appreciate your opinion and its really good to hear a man talk from his heart instead of his wallet! Your an asset to this community and to all coin collectors who ever laid down a hard earned buck for a coin! Glad your here!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts |
ND I agree I see no long term attraction to the New coins, the Buffalo nickel although today it is a novelty being hoarded by the millions IMHO this will render it forever available in whatever the best grades will be !! the new satin mint set ? I'm watching this set, I'm not sure where its going to go, my Gut feeling is that it will stagnate also,, what is your opinion? The SQ program does not bother me as much except for some of the ridiculously high prices that are being paid for slabbed examples,, I believe that the price cannot hold and many people will be stuck with a dog in the end. This type of thing really,, do you think that it will over the next decade have an adverse affect on coin collecting in general? I know the classics will always be sought after, but as this new coins program dies down and all of the effects are known ,, who will pay the price ? the TPG's for their promotion? or the average collector ? Dealers? someone will end up at the bottom of the food chain . Rick |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
The satin sets will probably be a mainstay for many years. The commems and ASE's have had this finish for many years and no one has complained. The hype over the modern coins is just that. I have been recommending that every buy State Quarters for face value at the bank and hold on to them, but NEVER pay top dollar for them. These coins are minted in the billions and there are just too many good examples available for them to command any real price. Early on, the Delaware and Pennsylvania quarters jumped very high very quickly and then fell to a decent price. Many were bought at the $60 level, and I doubt very seriously if they will ever see that price again. In early 2000 top grade quarters were fetching as much as $600 and today these same coins can be bought for $250 or $300. The TPG companies have jumped on this bandwagon and have been promoting the heck out of these fly by night coins, and people are silly enough to pay for it. Online auctions are full of these coins, and they make headlines, getting more and more to part with their hard earned money. In 10 years, there will be many who wish that the State Quarters had never beem created. Zak can tell you first hand about these fly by night coins. The faded 2003 cent had all the hype, and now is selling for a fraction of early prices. Once all the hype is over, I do believe that many will leave the hobby frustrated. This is the same mentallity found in TV buyers. They are all excited in the beginning, and once they have found that they overpaid and their coins are worth half or less of what they paid, they leave the hobby feeling like everyone is a crook. When I meet with collectors, I try to explain how the classics are the best buys. Some see the light and get out of the modern market all together. Sure they miss out on a little today, but 10,20,30 years from now, they will look back and be very thankful that they listened. |
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Valued Member
 United States
187 Posts |
I want to bring this back to the top. It's important. It's not if you are for it or against it. It's how do you want it to be implemented.
Jerry
Edited by Twentycent
08/28/2005 12:20 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2271 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by Twentycent
I want to bring this back to the top. It's important. It's not if you are for it or against it. It's how to do want it to be implemented.
Jerry
I'm against it. With all due respect it strikes me as some of the most inane drivel I've ever read. Oh sure there are lots of great points in it and it shows that some of these people really care about the hobby but throwing the baby out with the bath water and burning the house down is hardly a good way to deal with the sharks in the hobby. Has no one here ever looked at the history of government regulation? They don't improve things they tame them. They tax them. They licence and fine them. They codify and bureaurcratize them. They make waiting lists and triplicates of everything. None of these blessings will come for free. We'll pay for them over and over. And for what? There's no gaurantee that we'll get rid of a single clad coin. They'll still be around. Even if it got rid of all this junk in collector hands there would still be people grabbing them out of circulation and making collections because that's what collectors do; they make collections. And if the government were to pass laws against buying and selling junk then it would go underground and kids would have to buy and trade their clads in back alleys. We definitely have the best hobby in the world. We get to have our money and spend it too. We learn history, geography, science, metallurgy, statistics, art and finance just to name a few. We meet some of the greatest people in the world and as in all collectibles we are judged on the importance and meaning of our collections much more than the cost to assemble it. We have modern communication on the net and still have the old papers and periodicals. We have writers, and dealers, and specialists. Among the thousands of books are in depth studies of almost everything made before 1999. Most of the dignitaries and other luminaries in the hobby are very accessible. This is also one of the best businesses in the world. It generally takes place so freely and responds so directly to market forces that markups are unquestionably the lowest anywhere and most coin prices change immediately when demand changes. There are a few individuals who might run-up the value of old coins for personal profit but they will fail unless somebody actually buys their coins when they want out. In other businesses mark-ups are 200 or 300%. Buy some jewelry and you'll probably pay a 500% markup and far higher if it has diamonds. The TV guys sell a Morgan dollar at 200% of wholesale and people scream we need regulation. Well guess what? With regulation not only will the Morgan dollar usually sell at 300% of wholesale but so will the clad junk. Worse, if the clad junk continues to get more attention and higher demand the price will eventually have to go up anyway because it will trade in the back alleys instead of the shops. Perhaps regulation is coming to the hobby. Perhaps we do best to get involved early and help shape it to the specific needs of collectors or dealers. But those thinking that regulation will stop people from "paying too much" or "buying clad at real coin prices" or "buying misgraded coins" are simply wrong. It could cause almost all purchases to be "too much", and it could destroy the classic coin market because so many of the coins simply can not be graded to a real standard like most of the junk can. Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
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New Member
United States
4 Posts |
Hey, let's break the word politics down shall we? Poli = Many + Tics = Blood sucking animals. Many blood sucking animals!
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Valued Member
United States
187 Posts |
Well put cladking. But unfortunately federal regulation is coming to the coin industry which in turn effects the coin hobby. And I'm not quite sure where that division is. Does anybody else? Some states have already made a division of sorts with sales tax. $1000 and under you pay sales tax. Over you don't.
But come on. A billion dollar industry with no federal regulation. I kind of like it. But the feds got to hate it. And the "secret" was out and being discussed in Washington before gate was put on the end of coin thanks to some goonheads in Ohio.
Jerry
Edited by Twentycent
08/28/2005 12:27 am
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Forum Kid
Kuwait
1523 Posts |
Very Very long and intellectual Opinions, Very interesting!!!!
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Valued Member
United States
363 Posts |
I attended an ANA convention in Seattle about 14 or 15 yrs. ago and one of the speakers was Robert Leuver who was the former Director of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing and at that time, I think the newly elected director of the ANA. Did anyone else on the forum happen to attend? The main thing I remember about his speech was his belief that some sort of governmental regulation would surely come to the hobby. I remember one statement where he talked about "the long, ponderous arm of government" moves slowly but so surely that eventually it would provide the needed regulation. I don't know, though, here it is 15 years later and still the prophecy has not come true. Sometimes I think regulation gets a lot of attention when the market has just peaked, has started downward, and lots of people who were hyped into coin "investments" get burned and lose lots of money really fast! That was what happened at about that time, if I recall. Then, it kinda gets put on the back burner for awhile. Now, it seems like here we are again, the market is strong and will probably level off after a little while. Bigger money is being invested and politicians are starting to take notice. I suppose the time might come where the amount of money involved will insure that something will have to be done. But, I don't know. I think the difference is that with people who collect things no one forces us to do it! Food, water, shelter, transportation are all necessities that need regulation of some sort in order to maintain public welfare. Coins, stamps, antiques....hey, it's your choice. (though I bet some of us live, eat and breathe coins!) I would think there would already be laws in place to deal with fraud, scams and schemes in general. What are we gonna have, the National Director of Numismatic Fairplay appointed by the admininstration? Just my Two Cents....over simplified I know! |
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Posted 07/23/2005 3:44 pm
