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Are All 1985-D Dimes Broadstruck?

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 Posted 05/27/2015  01:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Agrippa to your friends list
Both sides! Got it! Thanks! Yes, they are slightly larger.
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 Posted 05/27/2015  04:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list
10th post down https://goccf.com/t/79201
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 Posted 05/27/2015  08:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ChildOfTheWheat to your friends list
Oh... That helpled me for sure!
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 Posted 05/27/2015  08:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add koinpro to your friends list
A ton of these came out of Denver that year. I have a letter here from the US Mint on this but I'll have to find it as I forget what it said and it seems I did not agree. Since the problem did not show up in Philadelphia and they made all the dies, I'd have to rule out die design as a problem -- though it might have been a contributing factor with other issues. This leaves it as being a planchet issue and/or unusual wear from a particular press. I have one here on my desk that I haven't looked at in 20 years and will find it (one day) and take a closer look.
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 Posted 05/27/2015  11:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Agrippa to your friends list
Thanks for all of the info! The link to the other thread was very interesting. Much appreciated!
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 Posted 05/27/2015  1:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list
Broadstruck errors are struck without the collar in place so if those dimes are reeded(as I suspect they are), then they are definitely not broadstruck.
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 Posted 05/27/2015  1:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list
As Ken said, Denver-minted dimes with this appearance are extremely abundant in 1985. I attribute it to a combination of excessive die convexity (a design flaw) and inadequate upset (a planchet preparation flaw).
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 Posted 05/27/2015  3:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
If they were broadstruck, there would be no reeding on the edge.
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 Posted 05/28/2015  10:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Agrippa to your friends list
That's really interesting! Thanks for all of the info! It seems I also find a good number of 1984's that look like this as well. Coop, you're right. These still have reeding. Although, it's kind of smoothed out in the area of that looks flat. Can't tell if it's from wear or otherwise.

How does all of this explain the weak strike, grease, blur on the reverse? Always in that same spot over the "DIME"?
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 Posted 05/28/2015  11:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list
Dies need to be slightly concave to strike up the periphery properly. In the Classic days this used to be a separate process called basining; I don't know if Modern dies are squeezed with basining or ground afterward. Mike's words from the other thread are intuitively true - this is obviously a procedural imperfection on Denver's part. The fact that they fixed the problem with later issues pretty much proves it.
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 Posted 05/29/2015  12:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add koinpro to your friends list
SsDd,
The basin is formed during hubbing. I think the problem (if there was one with the basining dies) would have been in Philadelphia since they made the dies - not Denver. However, since this issue only affected a small - though significant number of the dies in Denver and none of the dies in Philadelphia, and none of the dies in the previous or following year, I have to wonder if it may have had something to do with improper heat treat of some of the dies and these dies all going to Denver.

These coins appear to be late die state or suffering from premature die fatigue which could occur if the dies were improperly heat treated.

It is known that just two years earlier a significant number of Jefferson nickel dies were improperly heat treated resulting in premature die fatigue on many of the coins struck in that year.
Edited by koinpro
05/29/2015 08:39 am
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 Posted 05/29/2015  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
Dies need to be slightly concave to strike up the periphery properly.

The dies are convex. Since they are slightly closer together in the center it helps "push" the metal outward to help fill the periphery.

Since all the dies are name at Philadelphia and the problem is endemic to Denver I would doubt the problem is with the dies (Unless Denver ground the dies rebasining them after they arrived. Which does not seem likely.) I would think the culprit is more likely in how the edges of the planchets were upset because that could easily vary between mints.

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 Posted 05/29/2015  12:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add koinpro to your friends list
Conder101,

At first I thought planchets may have been a factor because as you point out, the supply is different for Denver than Philadelphia. However, after remembering that the US Mint identified the upset on planchets are the cause for excessive die wear and ridges around the periphery on the copper plated zinc cents, (getting worse the more the planchets are upset), I've backed away from that explanation. It seems like an upset would cause more of a ridge (as seen on other coins besides cents) rather than a flat rim. With that said, this is just a guess on my part based on known effects to cents. My feeling may run counter to what the Mint told me about the 1985-D dimes back in 1985 (or so). I just don't remember what is contained in that letter or if I was in agreement with their assessment.
Edited by koinpro
05/29/2015 12:18 pm
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 Posted 05/30/2015  09:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list
But there is more to upseting the planchets than just thickening the edge. The actual shape of the edge of the planchet also has an effect on the striking. And what if they didn't upset the edge as high as normal so you don't have that "bulge" out there to help bring up the rim? Maybe compress it a little more than normal so the planchets a a bit smaller in diameter ad they spend more time spreading outward to meet the collar and not up to form the rims? I don't know, I'm just speculating.
Edited by Conder101
05/30/2015 09:58 am
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 Posted 05/30/2015  10:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list

Quote:
The dies are convex. Since they are slightly closer together in the center it helps "push" the metal outward to help fill the periphery.


There's a nice discussion of the process on page 480 of the Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace dollars which completely disagrees with you. That's where I learned about the basining process, and why it was such an art. Too little, and the periphery wouldn't strike up properly; too much, and the resulting coins wouldn't stack because the centers were too high. It had to be evolved to a new level of intricacy for Morgans given their complex peripheral detail and vast mintage. In fact (previous ref, page 86), it was the refinement of the basining process which helped delay the initial shipment of Morgan dies to San Francisco and New Orleans in 1878 - they were considered incapable of basining according to the complex 3-step process which William Barber had worked out to be necessary for the new coin.

Intuition tells one that given the speed of the strike @ 150+ per minute, metal/design flow would be barely finished by the time the hammer die was already on its' way back upward. This is a poor time for the edges of the dies to be farther apart (basined convex) than closer together (basined concave).
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