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Ethics At A Local Coin Shop?

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Valued Member
United States
398 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2016  4:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add LocalCoinGuy to your friends list
Unethical for a Customer to interfere during a business transaction while happening at a place of business ...... No matter how wrong you feel the transaction is, you should not interfere .....

Immediately offering to buy the coins at a slightly higher price with the Seller still present would of been the best play and see if you can take advantage of the misfortune and if so inclined, buy the whole lot and then offer the Seller some additional monies on the side ....

Remember the Shop is paying rent / insurance / lights and they have a ton of money just sitting there, they have every right to make a profit for their efforts ..... Unfortunate some take it too far!
Edited by LocalCoinGuy
02/21/2016 4:26 pm
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
4596 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2016  5:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list
How is it unethical to prevent elder abuse?

I didn't agree to a code of ethics to enter their shop. They can always throw me out... the only code of ethics I did agree to is this one:


Quote:
As a member of the American Numismatic Association, I agree to comply with the
following standards of conduct:
-To support and be governed by the Federal Charter and the bylaws of the Association, and by
such rules, policies and regulations as may be in force from time to time.
-To conduct myself so as to bring no reproach or discredit to the Association, or impair the
prestige of the membership therein.
-To base all of my dealings on the highest plane of justice, fairness and morality, and to refrain
from making false statements as to the condition of a coin or as to any other matter.
-To neither buy nor sell numismatic items of which the ownership is questionable.
-To conform to the accepted standards of dignified advertising.
-To take immediate steps to correct any error I may make in any transaction.
-Not to sell, exhibit, produce or advertise a counterfeit, copy, restrike or reproduction of any
numismatic item if its nature is not clearly indicated by the word "counterfeit," "copy,"
"restrike," or "reproduction," incused in the metal or printed on the paper thereof, with the
exception of items generally accepted by numismatists and not in any way misrepresented
as genuine.
-To represent a numismatic item to be genuine only when, to the best of my knowledge and belief,
it is authentic.
-To fulfill all contracts made by me, either oral or written, to make prompt payments upon
delivery and to return immediately any item that is not satisfactory.
-To give aid to members in their quest for numismatic knowledge.
-To comply with the Dealer Code of Ethics with respect to my sale or purchase of any numismatic
item.


-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2016  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list
Already been sort of said. Most people just don't realize how much it costs to have any kind of store. And if you own the building, even worse. The list of expendatures an owner must contend with is massive.
To start with there is Electric, water and sewage, phone, faxes, gas, display cases, building maintenance and on and on and on. Then too there is those property taxes. And still most people don't realize that the owner of any store has a family and the same expendatures go with that. The store owner usually has a car and that car needs maintenace as well as gas.
ALL of this comes from the sales of his product which in the case of a coin store, the sale of coins and coin related items.
Pillar of the Community
United States
509 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2016  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CLS12 to your friends list
I agree on the cost of running business and not interfering with a deal in progress... BUT it might have been a good chance for you to cherry pick some of the new Morgan's before they get looked at by the owner/dealer.

And this "old lady" example is a good reminder to everyone that isn't planning on being buried with their collection to keep an updated ball park price list where your loved ones can find it, so your family isn't the old lady in the future. It might be good to keep a couple of trusted dealers #'s with it as well.. I've been at my LCS before and a widower calls periodically and he tells her price on monster box of ASE because her husband did very well on silver during the years, but unexpectingly passed away holding on to a couple monster boxes that he bought at $30+ an ounce.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1314 Posts
 Posted 02/22/2016  06:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chute72 to your friends list
I used to be a gun dealer that worked 52 shows a year. I learned a few things. Sometimes the dealer knows things the causal observer doesn't. I've seen dealers purchase a kings ransom in goods for just a few dollars. Then turn around and return them to the rightful owner.
At my local coin shop, I've seen people sell jewelry by weight, that was base metal and fraudulently marked. And I've seen people come in and sell small collections. And considering the overhead, I would say the customer did rather well. Once they left, I might tell the owner I was interested in the collection. He's been known to take out the few pieces that were of interest to him and then wholesale the rest to me at a very attractive price. Win, win, win.
If on the other hand you are uncomfortable with a dealers ethics, don't go there. Like so many other areas, reputation means a lot, and people talk. His business will suffer in the long haul.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2624 Posts
 Posted 02/22/2016  09:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DavidUK to your friends list
I worked in a pawnbrokers and my boss made it quite clear what I was to offer for scrap gold and silver...diamonds too. Given that it was my bosses money what could I do but comply?

The salesperson would have been in a similar position, and given the running expenses of a store, the occasions when things turn out to be not what they are supposed to be and that capital can quickly be tied up on items that are hard to move who are we to say the boss is wrong asking to have things in his/her favour by trying to buy cheap and sell expensive. As much as this seems abhorrent to us it is a simple fact of life that the seller in this spot is negotiating from a position of weakness.

The shoe has been on the other foot for me too, I sold a Cartier watch to a jewellers for considerably more that it was worth. I negotiated the value upwards significantly saying I had been offered more elsewhere and that it was a desirable model with easy profit still left in it but that I needed the money for an emergency. I was neglecting to tell them that it had a faulty circuit-board that was no longer in production. These places win some and they lose some, the winners must pay for the losers.

Also if a customer ever tried to interfere in a sale or purchase with another customer they should expect to receive a good telling off. Undercutting a sale, or outbidding the dealer would be less ethical to the dealer than him putting a bad offer to a customer since they can walk away and he has paid to be there, you have not.
Edited by DavidUK
02/22/2016 10:07 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
1211 Posts
 Posted 02/22/2016  10:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jerseyben to your friends list
Several responses in this thread are so unrealistic and out of touch that it is hard to believe...
Pillar of the Community
United States
3250 Posts
 Posted 02/22/2016  10:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add srs77 to your friends list
I've read this entire thread and it really comes down to this. Nobody at the coin shop twisted this woman's arm to sell. She could have just as easily walked away and found another place to shop her coins. She ultimately accepted the deal and it was done. Her choice totally. The shop assistant offered her a price he felt the shop could pay. Whether we think it's a good deal or not is irrelevant. Both parties walked away happy. Now, it's your choice to go back or not. I'm completely on board with that, I'd have to have been there to decided if I could justify going back. But the bottom line here is that NOTHING unethical was done. Dealer offered a price, it was accepted and that's it.

If that leaves a bad taste in your mouth then don't revisit this store. There are so many other ways to buy coins. But nothing unethical was done.
Valued Member
262 Posts
 Posted 02/22/2016  12:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CollectorKing to your friends list
It's true and it really is the nature of the beast. I mean everyone knows that coin shops, pawn shops, etc will pay much less then anything is worth. If you have the time and not in an emergency situation It is always better to sell Privately on CL or something. It does suck that shops like that rip people off and angers me but it's unfortunate and at the same time they do have overhead costs and it is not cheap to keep a business up and running. She didn't HAVE TO sell the coins to them, she could have walked. So in the end even though you overheard and knew it wasn't a fair price, it was her decision.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3843 Posts
 Posted 02/22/2016  1:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Joe2007 to your friends list
Thanks for the responses everyone. My main problem with the dealer is not about the price. It is they way he talked down the items in order to get the sale. From what I saw he didn't check the mintmarks and only took a quick glance at the coins before he decided what the shop would offer. They weren't culls, some looked fairly close to AU. From what I've gathered from other local dealers, Morgan dollars sell very quickly and if they didn't there are many wholesale dealers out there that pay strong prices due to their popularity. The dealer was stretching the truth (if not outright lying) when he said that the old lady's coins would not sell well and were out of favor with collectors. Lowball away, but don't tell fabrications to pressure opposite party to the transaction.
Valued Member
United States
129 Posts
 Posted 02/22/2016  1:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Titan7170 to your friends list
The store clerk was lying to get her to sell....Even if its her fault she doesn't know the value of something its not the point. If he offered $8 a coin then just said this is all I can offer you and kept his mouth shut then fine. But he went ahead and claimed these coins are out of favor with collectors trying to sway her decision by stating false opinions making her believe they arent worth as much and she wont do better at other places.
Pillar of the Community
United States
589 Posts
 Posted 02/22/2016  3:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add johntookit to your friends list
Bstrauss3

Quote:
As a member of the American Numismatic Association, I agree to comply with the
following standards of conduct:
-To support and be governed by the Federal Charter and the bylaws of the Association, and by
such rules, policies and regulations as may be in force from time to time.
-To conduct myself so as to bring no reproach or discredit to the Association, or impair the
prestige of the membership therein.
-To base all of my dealings on the highest plane of justice, fairness and morality, and to refrain
from making false statements as to the condition of a coin or as to any other matter.
-To neither buy nor sell numismatic items of which the ownership is questionable.
-To conform to the accepted standards of dignified advertising.
-To take immediate steps to correct any error I may make in any transaction.
-Not to sell, exhibit, produce or advertise a counterfeit, copy, restrike or reproduction of any
numismatic item if its nature is not clearly indicated by the word "counterfeit," "copy,"
"restrike," or "reproduction," incused in the metal or printed on the paper thereof, with the
exception of items generally accepted by numismatists and not in any way misrepresented
as genuine.
-To represent a numismatic item to be genuine only when, to the best of my knowledge and belief,
it is authentic.
-To fulfill all contracts made by me, either oral or written, to make prompt payments upon
delivery and to return immediately any item that is not satisfactory.
-To give aid to members in their quest for numismatic knowledge.
-To comply with the Dealer Code of Ethics with respect to my sale or purchase of any numismatic
item.

I truly wish all business had this types of codes and people who intend to follow. The closest things that I'm aware of would be the BBB or the Angle's list.

On one end we have this:
http://articles.latimes.com/1986-11...mineral-show
The story goes- the seller wanted $20 but the buyer not wanting to giveaway any clues, only offer him $10.

On the other end: The America pickers.


Ethics-At-A-Local-Coin-Shop?
Yes, Frank does like to lowball at times.
Informing the seller as to what they have and their value and making a reasonable offer.
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5180 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2016  4:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list
Not really connected, but also a recent story about ethics and a local coin shop...

This Monday, I wanted to visit a local coin place in the morning, before going to university (where I had classes in the early evening).
However, I was busier that morning than I expected, and wasn't able to go outside until 3pm or so, which didn't leave me anywhere near enough time to visit the coin shop I wanted to see (I hope to get there tomorrow, actually, but this is a bit tangential to the story).
So I went to the Taganka open-air coin market, which was close enough to being right on the way between me and university (unlike the one I originally intended, which was half an hour the other way) that I needed a lot less free time to be able to get there.

Upon arrival to Taganka, I saw about four dealers, one of which was pretty clearly packing up and wasn't willing to sell me anything. My repeated questions of "where's the bargain bin" got me pointed to Vitalik (though I didn't know his name yet), who had three big bags labeled 20, 30 and 50 rubles (roughly 25, 40 and 65 US cents respectively).
I stayed for a few minutes going throgh the 20 ruble bag. Ultimately, I chose 14 coins (that's a total of 280 rubles, or $3.50), and asked Vitalik for an empty ziploc bag to put the coins in (while I'd be going through the 30 ruble bag). He went through his pockets, and didn't find any. No regular polyethylene bags either.
So he just put them in one of his pockets. Um, why not, I thought, it's a bit unusual for a temporary place, but he's going to be taking them out anyway. (Note that at this point I hadn't paid for anything yet.)
I went on to the 30 ruble bag, went through it for a few minutes as well, and chose 9 coins, for a total of 270 rubles, or $3.60 (the mismatch is because the dollar values were crudely rounded by me, but basically the total was roughly the same).
He gives me a ziploc bag this time (no idea where he got it). I say, well, 270 plus 280 is 550 rubles (at this point I take 550 rubles out of my wallet and into my hand), now give me the other 14 coins from your pocket please?

I never actually saw these 14 coins. What I got instead was a rambling speech that was about 80 percent (maybe more, I hadn't counted) assorted obscenities.
I had heard of people talking in pretty much straight obscenities. I never expected that I would ever meet one, never mind a coin dealer.
I tried my best to figure out the content of his speech (most of the obscenities seemed to be just random interjections); as far as I could tell, he was proposing that I should go and visit a prostitute, and that we should compare our penises.
(For the record, he used the obscene word for penis, and I'm not sure I correctly interpreted the prostitute part, which was also described obscenely.)
I very politely answered that I wasn't particularly interested in the former, and that I definitely wasn't interested in the latter, and in any case the weather was all wrong for that (it was snowing).
[Incidentally, I think that's about the fourth coin dealer who told me that he wanted me to go visit a prostitute. (Though the first three had, for the most part, managed to keep that proposal fairly polite and free of gratitious obscenities.) I have no idea why.]
My repeated queries as to the first 14 coins were met with slightly varying repetitions of mostly the same thing, with the occasional request not to talk nonsense (as if what I was saying was any more nonsensical than their own ramblings) or approval that I was sober (which I was - I almost never drink alcohol, and as far as I know had never actually been drunk - but there was no further mention as to what my sober status meant, only more obscenities).

However, as I noticed that the other 9 coins (which I had in my hand) had not been mentioned either, I decided that the dealer forgot about them, and after yet another tirade of assorted obscenities, left without paying (taking the 9 coins from the 30 ruble bag with me).
I was quite unsure that I was correct to do this, though, so on my way out, I came to one of the other dealer and said "I wonder if the other guy noticed that I didn't pay him".
So the other dealer said "Vita-alik! Did you get the money?" and Vitalik answered "Yes!" (that was when I found out what his name was) and the other guy said "Oh, that's fine then" and I left.
I still wonder if I was anywhere remotely near ethical not to pay the surprisingly foul-mouthed guy any money.

The coins were quite nice, incidentally (though perhaps not as nice as the other 14 coins that I didn't manage to get - that lost bunch included, among other things, an 1919 Wheat cent, one of the 1950s Romanian types I wanted, and some Japanese aluminium and tin coins from the 1940s).
Valued Member
United States
79 Posts
 Posted 02/24/2016  9:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Njcoinman to your friends list
I would have absolutely interrupted, asked to speak with her outside, checked them out and bought them from her at a better price (which still would have been a steal).
Valued Member
United States
265 Posts
 Posted 02/24/2016  9:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Brushy Bandit to your friends list
I'd have offered her more money, straight up in front of the dealer. He was basically robbing her.
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