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 Replies: 31 / Views: 4,007 |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
11917 Posts |
JJ, if you look in the obverse, from about 10 to 1 the denticles are not sharp and look heavily worn. For a proof coin that is not heavily worn, you should not see that. Proofs are stuck multiple times and there is usually a very sharp rim and denticles. But before noticing that I also wondered if it was a proof due to the sharp detail in the devices of liberty and the feathers on the eagle. I love sharply struck eagle feathers that are uniform.
As to the difference of opinion on cleaning, I think both sides of the argument may be right. It is kind of tough to tell (for me, maybe less so for more experienced graders) from the pics and I don't have the coin in hand yet. I will try to take better pics when it comes, and maybe that will shed further light on this question. I do not claim to have the experience or expertise of others in this forum. I bought it liking it enough to accept that if it is cleaned, I am still happy to own this very (to me) sharp coin. Realize that it is not everyone's cup of tea.
Now the dilemma moves onto whether I should crack the slab out of its casing to place in my holder.
Thanks to all for your input!
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
12/04/2016 10:06 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11917 Posts |
Quote:
Great pickup N_S. It was right inline with current FMV based on the last major auction of an NGC AU55 last January which hammered at $223. This is probably around an FMV of $250 so you got a nice little discount from a seller who wanted to move the inventory item. The sell price was not "cheap" due to any issues with the coin. Thanks. This coin traded hands on August 21 of this year for $165 here: http://www.greatcollections.com/Coi...ar-NGC-AU-55Assuming that the person, I bought it from bought it here, which I doubt, they were in it for $165 + $4.50 in shipping, so $169.50. So they made about $55 dollars on this coin minus holding costs for 4 months, if it didn't change hands in the interim. I'm happy with the deal. If dealers didn't make money, there wouldn't be professionals out there pounding the pavement to keep coin collecting going. I appreciate the work they do to keep material flowing in the market. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
12/04/2016 12:26 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6370 Posts |
Quote:
Those are not hairline scratches from a cleaning, its chatter in the fields from being passed around as a collectors coin for the 140 years leading up to the coin being slabbed. I see long lines in the surface of the coin that are all parallel. The parallel lines are in a different direction in the full slab picture. Those are hairlines from a cleaning, not just marks from casual handling. Quote:
The color is also not "unnaturally white", that is washout from the lighting when the photo was taken. There should be some oxidation if the surfaces are original. Not the case here. Again, indicative of a cleaning. Quote:
Intact luster is not always a must-have priority for a coin to achieve an AU grade, even a Mid-AU grade. I own multiple issues of various types that are AU53 to AU58 and luster is not nearly as present as would be expected. Naturally oxidized silver is not going to be lustrous and gleaming with eye appeal after 160 plus years of being passed around unless you've got a perfectly preserved MS example and even then there are many coins that do not posses the cartwheel luster.
Its about the wear on the high points that take a coin with original surfaces from an AU55 to an EF45. Wrong IMO. Luster MUST be present for an EF-45. If there is no luster and the coin is graded EF-45 or AU, then the coin is overgraded. You say so yourself in the bolded portion of the above quote. My guidelines for the EF/AU grades, which I learned from Bill Fivaz. The TPGs have corrupted this categorization. EF-40: most of the detail remains. No luster present. EF-45: Small remnants of luster hugging the devices. AU-50: The remaining luster expands a little further from the devices. AU-53: most of the luster in the fields is worn away. ~50% of the luster remains. AU-55: Some of the luster in the fields is worn away. ~75% of the luster remains. AU-58: There is light wear to the high points. 99+% of the original luster remains. On the OP coin, I see luster only hugging the devices, meaning luster was not completely washed out by the photos. It was completely destroyed by an abrasive cleaning. Quote:
Naturally oxidized silver is not going to be lustrous and gleaming with eye appeal after 160 plus years of being passed around unless you've got a perfectly preserved MS example and even then there are many coins that do not posses the cartwheel luster. This statement is a complete fallacy. Naturally-oxidized means toned. You can have toning/oxidation on an MS coin. An AU-58 will look MS with a little wear, so it can have lustrous surfaces. Thinking that a coin will survive naturally without oxidation MS or otherwise for 160 years is completely illogical. That is why I say this coin was "unnaturally white." Given the physics of striking a coin, an AU/MS coin MUST have cartwheel luster (unless the dies were freshly polished). If you have an AU/MS coin without cartwheel luster, it is either prooflike, cleaned, or overdipped. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts |
I'll only say I like your coin, NS.
Not getting into that shooting war, although I almost lit the fuse...
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11917 Posts |
TypeCoin, thanks for your great and extensive explanation. It is really helpful to those like me who are trying to learn. According to the Sheldon scale used by the ANA, you are correct and an AU55 should retain 75% of mint luster. Not as familiar with NGC, but PCGS has been very clear that the grade of circulated coins is 70% wear. And they say the following about eye appeal: Quote:Luster. AU (Almost Uncirculated) coins should have some original luster. http://www.PCGS.com/eyeappeal/ Some is a far cry from 75%. Grading has changed. Maybe not always for the better, but one could make the argument that TPG drives the market today. Especially for slabbed coins. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
12/04/2016 7:11 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6370 Posts |
Quote:
I'll only say I like your coin, NS.
Not getting into that shooting war, although I almost lit the fuse... Yeah... sorry. If it makes you feel any better, you coin is far better than mine. |
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New Member
United States
43 Posts |
The hairlines, beautiful eagle and lack of luster made me think circulated Proof. I'm still trying to figure out the differences in proof vs prooflike coins.
Edited by nicelytoned
12/04/2016 5:33 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3843 Posts |
Maybe just the photos but in this light the hairlines appear to be a bit distracting. Definitely a technical AU-55. NGC must have thought that the old cleaning was acceptable for a straight grade. Not to be overly critical, I still think it is a nice type coin that will go well in your set.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4337 Posts |
Quote:
Not getting into that shooting war lol the scary part is I think I am shooting it out with a teenager! I'm not sure! I am sure the guy seems to have blessed and ordained himself a having written the book on grading based on this thread and many many more on the CCF. My part is done. Nice half nonetheless. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Quote:
Intact luster is not always a must-have priority for a coin to achieve an AU grade, even a Mid-AU grade. I own multiple issues of various types that are AU53 to AU58 and luster is not nearly as present as would be expected. Naturally oxidized silver is not going to be lustrous and gleaming with eye appeal after 160 plus years of being passed around unless you've got a perfectly preserved MS example and even then there are many coins that do not posses the cartwheel luster.
Its about the wear on the high points that take a coin with original surfaces from an AU55 to an EF45. This is true. Many MS coins have no luster from oxidation as do some AU coins. No rules of grading are ironclad and luster is no exception. To say you must have lust present for an AUXX grade is ridiculous. I've owned AU++ graded coins from PCGS & NGC with virtually no wear and no luster because they were dark coins. Edited by BH1964
12/04/2016 7:35 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6370 Posts |
Quote:
This is true. Many MS coins have no luster from oxidation as do some AU coins. No rules of grading are ironclad and luster is no exception. To say you must have lust present for an AUXX grade is ridiculous. I've owned AU++ graded coins from PCGS & NGC with virtually no wear and no luster because they were dark coins. I think you are talking about when a thick layer of patina subdues luster. I have seen this many times on BU Morgans and Peace dollars. A quick, proper dip will take away this oxidation and reveal full, brilliant luster, orpartial luster for circulated coins. Unless I am mistaken, our esteemed member Bill Jones said that AU coins had to have at least some original luster left. Quote:
the scary part is I think I am shooting it out with a teenager! I'm not sure! I am sure the guy seems to have blessed and ordained himself a having written the book on grading based on this thread and many many more on the CCF. Well... you're not wrong... and I apologize for my display of egotism. I can get carried away sometimes. I am just *assuming* what the surfaces are like based on what I see in the pictures and what I have seen in coins in-hand. I guess I should just shut up unless a) better pictures are shown or b) I see the coin in-hand. I have been proven wrong before. All I know is that I would buy it as a cleaned coin from those pictures unless someone can convince me otherwise. I guess I am just paranoid. Edited by TypeCoin971793
12/04/2016 9:41 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11917 Posts |
Got this coin today. TypeCoin was right. The coin is flat with no luster. The scratches are very light, but the surface is flat and dull. It was dipped in something corrosive. Will probably try to upgrade it one day. For now it lives in my collection. Live and learn. Another out of focus picture that tells you nothing below.  IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
12/08/2016 8:45 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11917 Posts |
Took new photos with refracted light setup. Let me know if this improves the images. Looking a little green...   IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11917 Posts |
After examining this coin carefully in hand, decided I wanted a better one so I returned it to the seller who refunded my money. As some of you know, I turned around yesterday and took a flyer on an 1877 seated half that looked to be highly detailed but also highly shiny. I may be at strike 2 next week, but hoping that the coin is better than the pictures. Now on to updating my type set blog. Thanks amigos.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
I probably would have returned it too. It appears to be a low-end example of a 55 and close to a no-grade (details only) IMO.
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Posted 12/04/2016 12:26 pm
