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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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t takes about 2 minutes to see that the 1 and 4 are an exact match to the one in the Smithsonian. Authenticating a piece such as that is A LOT more complicated than that, and no you can't authenticate it in two minutes. None of us are ever going to know the true story or history of it, but it's very easy to see how it could have passed hands or how it could have been locked away for generations and someone said you know what I'd rather have a couple million dollars instead of this coin |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
I'm saying it takes 2 minutes to have serious problems believing it's a replica/counterfeit, but the "New England resident" appears to be claiming that s/he bought it as such. Obviously actual authentication would be much more exhaustive (but NGC did it from images!). I'm just not believing this "purchased with some reservations" bit.
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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I'm saying it takes 2 minutes to have serious problems believing it's a replica/counterfeit, You have it completely backwards then unless you think you find multi-million dollar rarities everywhere |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
I don't get what your contention is here. If _you_ had this coin, would you not easily find out that a real one is worth 6-7 figures? Would _you_ sell it to Mr. New England at melt or whatever because he's also convinced it's fake (or so he tells you)? Is my point that difficult to understand? Like I said, it takes 2 minutes to compare this one to the Smithsonian example and realize that distinctive features of the 1 and 4 are identical, as is the die clash on the reverse. Mr. New England's story, so far as we know it, doesn't add up in my mind. That's all I'm saying.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6370 Posts |
Let's think about this logically. It would seem obvious that a coin with a mintage of just 268 pieces would be struck from a single die pair. With that said, all 1854 S half eagles would share the exact same die characteristics. As the example in the Smithsonian is guaranteed genuine (assuming the coin was obtained directly from the SF mint), all coins should have the same die characteristics. A counterfeiter could add a mintmark, but the probability of getting it exactly right is very small, plus it is fairly obvious when a mintmark is added (the metal does not flow into the mintmark; it just sits on the surface). The counterfeiter could also drill a hole in the side of the coin and push up the mintmark, but this will leave damage on the edge. It could be a die transfer fake, but you would need to transfer the details from a genuine coin. A counterfeiter is EXTREMELY not likely to have one of these coins, and is probably not stupid enough to potentially ruin a genuine 6/7-figure genuine coin. Similarly, altered die transfers from an 1854 P half eagle would have toolmarks and very slight differences from the one in the Smithsonian. Lastly, I very highly doubt that a counterfeiter would have been able to get access to a genuine 1854 S half eagle, so any theories that one could have been 3-D scanned and dies produced from the scan can reasonably be thrown out.
If NGC was able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the dies that struck this coin were the ones that struck the other known specimens, then I trust their judgement.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1882 Posts |
Quote:
I'm saying it takes 2 minutes to have serious problems believing it's a replica/counterfeit, but the "New England resident" appears to be claiming that s/he bought it as such. Obviously actual authentication would be much more exhaustive (but NGC did it from images!). I'm just not believing this "purchased with some reservations" bit. Where are you reading that he purchased it with reservations? The coin could have been in his family for decades, with the belief that it wasn't real. The ability to learn about things online is a fairly recent phenomenon. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
My two quotes are above and are from the NGC article ( https://www.NGCcoin.com/news/articl...ive-dollar/) and the NGC "coin explorer" page linked in the article ( https://www.NGCcoin.com/coin-explor...-ucid-25UN). Another quote Quote:
He had shown it to a few collectors and dealers at a recent coin show, but everybody said they thought it was a fake implies that it was a recent acquisition, but who knows. Maybe Mr. New England just recently pulled it out of grandma's safety deposit box. The secrecy about where it's been for the last 160 years is what bothers me. They could reveal this in general terms without compromising anonymity, like the Saddle Ridge horde people did. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8715 Posts |
Let's not get into an argument about this coin, please.
IMO this is a real coin, because a top grading service checked it out. Most likely, they had many people look at it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6370 Posts |
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implies that it was a recent acquisition There is nothing in that quote that implies that it is a recent acquisition. You are reading too far into it. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
Sorry, I'll stop. It's an astounding discovery and when faced with missing information, my natural inclination is to try to piece it together from the tidbits. Obviously it's just speculation.
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Valued Member
United States
86 Posts |
Amazing find! I would not be surprised if some old New Englander found a stash of coins and had no idea what it was because I have a friend who inherited the old colonial homestead from his uncle, who tho married had no children. My friend lived in the house for over forty years,, raised a large family and in 2013 when he was 85 (and yes, he is still living) decided to move to Florida. Preparing for sale he found cigar boxes and small wooden boxes filled with hundreds of asserted coins all wrapped in swatches of cloth!! They dated from 1801 to the 1960's. It was known that the uncle collected coins all his life, but no one knew where they were or what he left behind. And, they cared less! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1101 Posts |
I think I have the 5th but holding off for a bit until I send it in
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1316 Posts |
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I think I have the 5th but holding off for a bit until I send it in Sent mine in last week. Sorry. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10038 Posts |
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but everybody said they thought it was a fake because until now there were only three genuine surviving 1854-S $5 gold pieces known, Too many people putting their faith in "accepted" norms could have caused this coin to be lost forever. Just like the opposite side of the issue: too much faith in an established system can also result in major problems. Think of all the slabbed 1896, 1900, and 1902 micro-O Morgans. They were TPG graded/slabbed as genuine until 2005 when it was determined ALL of them are counterfeits! Think of the money that changed hands. and only after (if I read the multiple online articles properly) the VAM community had already been suspicious of these did a TPG study them for authenticity. To prove these Morgans are fake, the TPGs deemed the situation important enough to post online data showing why/how they came to this conclusion. So why not deem this certification of the ultra rare coin as worthy of posting the equivalent verifiable data online? Then anyone would have a better idea as to what they want to believe about the find. How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halveshttps://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7624 Posts |
Seems like the current owner is being really, really secretive about the coins provenance.
Karma and bad juju run hand-in-hand.
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Posted 04/22/2018 7:50 pm
