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How To Tell Business Strike Cents From Matte Proof Cents?

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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2021  9:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list
If proof you has a good beer for 3-4K.
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United States
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 Posted 04/25/2021  9:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list

Quote:
Damage I sold the last propriety in state and now till summer (when I will buy a new one in Texas,) been in Canada I can not obtain no documentation from the mint.

The problem with the matte could occur in many ways. Me I thing because it is a balance of the cost of the production and stay in - OR : 1): Purge melt and Krinos cool, or 2). In the annealing.

Your studies are supper from my point of view. Question: do it is only the strike?



How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?


Quote:
I do not contradicted you but I put in question 300 tones strike. This are mean the mint prepared special collars, why? I can strike 3 time at 90 and have same result.


That is NOT true at all. 3 strikes at 90 are still less than one at 300. Just because 3x90 is 270 does not mean that that "270" total would be equal to a single strike at 270.


Quote:
I have a 1994P or 1997P penny. How I can say it is matte or not? just by rim?


It's not. Proof is a method of manufacture, not condition. Matte proof dies were carefully selected and sandblasted and used specially prepared planchets.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2021  10:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
Well the 1916 coins were special business strike coins. All the designs that year, had more enhancements on them. Even Dimes and quarters. Probably the last year they really cared about the designs. I have a 1916 Cent that had a great strike, but found out later they all had a better set of dies that year.
Matte Proof for 1916:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
Note these rims on these matte proofs. They are almost square.

Here is the great strike on a Business strike cent:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
Great strike on this years cents.
The nickels also were great strike coins:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
The dimes were also a better design for that year:
Change over year from the Barber design:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
To the Mercury Series:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?

The quarters started a new design that year:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
The Halves also were switching the design that year also:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
Toned in the right spot:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
The coins that year, just had the look.
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
CoopHome : Why was 1916 a special year at the mint? The change over of designs away from the Barber designs.






Edited by coop
04/26/2021 10:59 am
Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2021  10:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list
Thank you COOP, now I understand. your encyclopedia clear my mind.

To answer to those which think the mint will strike at 200 or more tones. If you strike the 200 tones the collar must resist 265 and more tones. The forces go lateral make press the margins. This it is the most simply physic of forces and materials resistance. If I take the penny for example. It is copper alloy. If you press at 200 tones and more the crystalline structure will broke. For the reason of the material resistance also in this days the proof are strike 2-3 time.

You guys talk about a strike which the collar take. What material will use the mint to resist at this forces? they change the alloys because was to expensive, but in same time will use noble metals for collars to be able to strike?
Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2021  11:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
I've seen images of the hub process. It looks real heavy duty:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2021  11:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list
Yes is heavy duty. But the margins? It is steel, which has his own proprieties. Even if you enforce with Ir or Ca (iridium or cadmium) will not resist for 750 strike a minute and 150 K strikes. The collar take the forces and go millions. You change the anvil and the hammer, not the collar. This it is the processes. I was in the studies of and damage we do not find the high resistence then 120 tones at this rhythm and sequences.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2021  11:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
The hub makes the dies. Its not so many coins a second. It is a press that creates the dies. Later they are tapered to the correct size.
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2021  11:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list
Excellent photos. If you look the collar will be 2 to 3 mm.
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 Posted 04/25/2021  11:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rothery to your friends list
Grape - you really should stop making fun of @Silviosi - thought I read somewhere this was family friendly forum?
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 04/26/2021  12:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list
@ Rothery thanks but believe me no one will make fun of me. Some times we has to joke also. the life is life. But believe me if someone is impolite or insult I will be the first to jump. I do 'it and I will do again, and this it is because if we do not respect others we do not respect ourselves. thanks Rothery
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 Posted 04/26/2021  12:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list

Quote:
Grape - you really should stop making fun of @Silviosi - thought I read somewhere this was family friendly forum?


I'm 99% sure he understands I'm not trying to be mean. I've done my best to make that clear to him on an interpersonal level. Also, I know that if he really had an issue he'd have either come to me or one of the mods who would have contacted me. If it was a genuinely problematic behavior I would have stopped a while ago.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2021  12:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list
@ GrapeCollects Do not worry. you state your opinion, me mine. the best thing of this it is that two opposed ideas and visions in general could end with the best inventions. I was the assistant of proff. dr. Johnson and argues all time. Resulted in one of the best treatment of the cancer. so for me argue, is normal an open windows to new things.
New Member
United States
5 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2021  10:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Brian Edgerton to your friends list
A good reference for Lincoln Cent matte proofs I use is: " Lincoln Cent Matte Proofs" by Kevin Flynn, 2009, with extensive contributions and bibliography. Another reference: "Matte Proof Lincoln Cents 1909-1917", by Leonard Albrecht, 1983.

After 40 years collecting Lincoln Cents, I'm still a student of the series, learning new information regularly. There's always new information! The Lincoln Cent, being the most enduring coin series in U.S. history, is a humbling topic.

Regarding multiple striking of Lincoln Cent matte proofs - I haven't seen definitive records. Multiple striking may well have been the practice. I just don't know. Reference pp. 18 -20 " Lincoln Cent Matte Proof Striking Characteristics", with the Flynn text. Striking pressures, die preparation, planchet heating, collar placement etc. are all discussed. I find no mention of multiple striking. But that doesn't mean it wasn't the practice. Absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence of absence!

Regarding the recent posting of the 1916 Lincoln Cent - refer to Flynn, pp. 19, 61-2, 90-1. The 1916 cent is generally found with the spectacular strikes, exhibiting full device and beard detail - some of the 1916 business strikes almost rival the matte proofs. Much improvement over the quality of the immediately preceding years. The 1916 cent is first in strong striking characteristics of the matte proofs. Maybe the Philadelphia mint upgraded the dies and upped the hydraulic striking pressures for the 1916 cent? The die diagnostics with the 1916 matte proof cent are subtle and I couldn't identify any clues from the posted photo. Profession certification is essential.

Valued Member
206 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2021  10:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnH4444 to your friends list
This website has all the die diagnostics for matte proof cents. https://www.lincolncentcollection.c...eristics.php
Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2021  11:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
Satin Finish coins are not the same as a Mattte proof:
Seeing them side by side with the normal/proof examples will help us to determine the differences:
2009-D LP series, the 3 finishes:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
2007 Jefferson nickel 3 finishes:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
Dimes:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
Quarters:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
Halves:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
Dollars:
2005-D Sac Satin Finish Dollars SP-68:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?
2005-P Sac Satin Finish Dollars SP-68:
How-To-Tell-Business-Strike-Cents-From-Matte-Proof-Cents?


So these are struck with The three finishes. The Business strikes are normal examples, the Satin finish have a duller look to them and the Proofs are double struck coins.

CoopHome : What are satin coins, and where are they found?
Edited by coop
04/26/2021 1:02 pm
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