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18xx-S Seated Liberty Quarter Dollar - Last Two Digits?

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 Posted 02/26/2019  10:20 pm  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list
Now that's nice! The overlay itself of the 1872 is a shade off but it does look like that isn't going to work, while the 77 seems like a nice fit. Great to see those dates to same scale and all as I didn't realize just how much curve there is on the top of the 7 and down the leg. It's not boxy at all. Seems like things are getting very close to the answer with these images.
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 Posted 02/26/2019  10:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list
Thanks for the overlays turingmach. It's a lot easier than counting dentils to find the positions of the numerals.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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 Posted 02/26/2019  11:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list
I agree the overlay is great. What do you use? And did you align over the "2" on purpose so that the comparison of digit features would be synched?

I'm reposting previous closeup because I didn't consider manipulation earlier. But what is this "toning" stuff? The bottom edge of Liberty's base looks like how my trim turns out when I try to paint my house myself. I guess when there's a $995 value difference I start getting overly suspicious.
18xx-S-Seated-Liberty-Quarter-Dollar---Last-Two-Digits?
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 Posted 02/27/2019  12:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add turingmach to your friends list
kbbpll, I used Photoshop Elements, and made the overlays by aligning all of the coins' details except for the dates. The 1877 lined up quite nicely on its own; the 1872, not so much. The apparent misalignment of the dates in the 1872 overlay is not due to the images being misaligned; that's really how far off the date is from an 1872-S.
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 Posted 02/27/2019  06:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list
The purplish toning looks a lot like the initial color of silver test solution on a silver coin, though the purple color doesn't remain after rinsing. But acidic test solution does "bite" the coin surface and gives a permanent tan/brown discoloration with a slight etch. Addition of something else, such as iodine or a sulfur compound, could create the permanent purple stain. The presence of the yellow C in the field is strange - as if surface contamination might have interfered with the staining solution.

The staining is all over the fields of the obverse, but not on the raised features, as if it has been painted on. Seeing how the purple color has penetrated the crevices - between the dentils and into the surface scratches - it looks like the raised features have been buffed or rubbed to remove the color and appear silvery again.

"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
02/27/2019 07:28 am
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 Posted 02/27/2019  08:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list
Great overlays for sure, very helpful. To me, the color contrast is simply that of an ugly circulation cameo effect. Coin may have been buried at some point.
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 Posted 02/27/2019  09:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Heymikep to your friends list
This is an 1877 S Quarter. The other key to determine is the mintmark, on the 1872 there is only one reverse die variety and the S (and smaller) is centered over the "R". On the 1877 there are 11 reverse die marriages and none of them are centered over the "R".
Edited by Heymikep
02/27/2019 09:43 am
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 Posted 02/27/2019  10:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list
I think this is very recent work Coinfrog. Purple is not natural toning, nor is the brightness of the raised figures. IMO this is a moneymaking project that failed and went into the scrap pile.

I can artificially tone cleaned coins in a matter of minutes with a few matches. This doesn't make them purple, but it looks like a similar approach was used on this coin.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
02/27/2019 10:48 am
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 Posted 02/27/2019  10:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list
Just my opinion.
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 Posted 02/27/2019  3:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
kbbpll, I used Photoshop Elements, and made the overlays by aligning all of the coins' details except for the dates.

Exactly backwards of how it should have been done. The inscriptions and the figure of Liberty were in a hub and should not change relative to each other, but the dates were punched in by hand with a four digit logotype punch so they DO vary in position. If you do the overlays by aligning the other features it is somewhat surprising that either date matched the subject coin closely. (most likely the only reason the 1877 did is you happened to choose an image that came from the same obv die. If the image had come from a coin from a different obv die then possibly neither one would have lined up with the OP coin.) If you are doing date overlays you need to align the dates and ignore the rest of the coin. In other words align the 18 and then see how the other digits line up.
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 Posted 02/27/2019  5:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add llewellin to your friends list
That zoomed in photo of the date region convinces me this coin was doctored. Not only is the cameo effect unnatural (you can see where they painted on the oxidizer and smeared some a bit too high), but the date has been tooled and sanded down to conceal it. The 1 and the 8 are sanded almost flat along with the other digits to hide the modification and make a date of 1872 plausible. There is no way the coin would have natural wear of those digits all the way down, when the date is still protected by the rim and the base of liberty seated.
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 Posted 02/27/2019  6:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list
Well, that does make sense.
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 Posted 02/27/2019  7:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list
From the junk silver bin, it rises to tell its sordid tale again. This is what I love about this forum.
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 Posted 02/27/2019  8:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add turingmach to your friends list

Quote:
The inscriptions and the figure of Liberty were in a hub and should not change relative to each other, but the dates were punched in by hand with a four digit logotype punch so they DO vary in position.


Conder101, I'm aware of this. Had neither date lined up I would have tried different comparison images for the overlay, then taken your approach as a last resort had I been unable to find a match. When I resized/rotated/skewed the overlay onto the first 1877-S image I tried, the date fell into place.
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 Posted 02/27/2019  11:07 pm  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list
I have been learning quite a lot here, and wanted to thank all for thoughts and input. My sort of final opinion would be that this is an 1877-S quarter. Period. I can't see anything that can overcome the evidence for that determination.

That said, I don't believe that the hard stuff on/around the date was put there to do date mischief, but I am starting to believe that it was used for that purpose. The 18 are almost certainly sanded down, while parts of the other two numbers seem worked a bit to get them where they are. Originally I thought someone found a dateless coin and just removed stuff until they got the date. But now I am pretty sure that at least some effort was made to make the thing look as much like an 1872 as possible.

So from my end I believe it would be reasonable to call this a counterfeit 1872. Which would be great as I collect counterfeits and this would be a neat addition to that part of my collection.
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