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1926-S Mercury Dime - Will PCGS Straight Grade This?

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 Posted 01/14/2021  3:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add one_fine_dime to your friends list
When I bought this coin, other than the suspect whatever it is at the "E" in "DIME" (which chafemasterj pointed out), I just thought the reverse had a nice "circulation cameo". But learning more, I'm understanding that this kind of toning can be deemed "environmental damage" by TPGs, as many of you are suggesting.

Quote:
That Dime is environmental damage not toning

But PCGS uses the term "toning" in their own definition of "Environmental Damage"

97 Environmental Damage - i.e. corrosion, coating (lacquer), excessively heavy toning, etc.

https://www.PCGS.com/news/no-grade-coins-pt6
97 - Environmental Damage. Environmental damage includes such problems as corrosion, excessively dark toning and verdigris. Most of these problems arise from improper storage, either in a humid, warm, or extremely bright environment, or from burial in the ground or in the sea.

One of the more interesting aspects of an Environmental Damage call concerns toning. While natural toning is simply often a product of time, and to some collectors signifies an original coin, it can take on many forms. When the toning forms in an excessively dark, splotchy and unattractive pattern, it loses appeal to a great number of dealers and collectors.

Because one of the tenants of PCGS when it was formed was "sight unseen trading," it was determined that coins which were deemed "unattractive" by a consensus of the graders would not be put into holders. A prospective bidder would likely be faced with an unpleasant surprise when he received the coin from the seller.

Shown below are three examples of what we're referring to. Sure, the toning may be natural, but even if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there would be few eyes that would find any of these to be beautiful.
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 Posted 01/14/2021  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list
Ok , we have a good discussion going on here about Toning vs. ED . Any other members would like to voice their opinions on this topic ?
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 Posted 01/14/2021  6:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list
"Details" coins come in all shapes and sizes. I've seen slabbed "details" coins with beautiful obverses and only a reverse rim gouge that I felt were worth up to 80% or even more of a typical trading price depending on scarcity. This particular example is well below average (in my opinion) in eye appeal, and I would not value it at more than 30% of market value tops.
Edited by Coinfrog
01/14/2021 6:44 pm
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 Posted 01/14/2021  7:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam_E to your friends list
I think the details value can also depend on whether or not the reason for detailing can "wear out"

For example, a cleaned XF coin can be worn down to a VF grade and virtually all signs of cleaning will be wiped out, even if it were cleaned pretty harshly. I would be comfortable paying VF money for an EF cleaned coin.

On the other hand, a bent XF coin will have no opportunity to become a straight graded coin again. I wouldn't ever be interested in a bent coin, but if I had to throw a value on one, it would probably be 1/5 or less of the FMV in the same straight grade.

This one is kind of an edge case, it would probably wear out fine, but if any of that corrosion is too deep, it may be too far gone, It also has low eye appeal anyway even if it were straight graded. I would probably pay high F to low VF money for it, maybe a bit less. So maybe $30-50 IMO.
Edited by Adam_E
01/14/2021 7:16 pm
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 Posted 01/14/2021  7:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list
Honest question from a member looking for opinions - many of which have been offered.

I say the coin is naturally toned due to environmental damage ... and to me lacks eye appeal.
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.jk-dk.art
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 Posted 01/14/2021  7:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list
I agree on all counts.
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 Posted 01/14/2021  7:35 pm  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list
That coin is definitely ED and will get 97ed at PCGS .
Just not a very nice coin in my mind .
You could probably do much better by being selective .
I doubt that piece is a fifty dollar coin .
Also when you do the math 50 bucks us about right to certify
a single coin at PCGS these days when you factor all of your costs.
Grading fee , shipping both ways packaging cost to get to the PO etc,
These days we certify nothing unless an ANACS special , the coin is over 200
Selling price or an interesting VAM or other variety . Simply not a good use of your very hard earned dough !
Edited by Pacificoin
01/14/2021 7:39 pm
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 Posted 01/14/2021  7:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add one_fine_dime to your friends list

Quote:
I would not value it at more than 30% of market value tops

Quote:
I would probably pay high F to low VF money for it, maybe a bit less. So maybe $30-50 IMO.
Ok cool. Again, greysheet for XF40 is $190, I paid $52.

Quote:
This particular example is well below average (in my opinion) in eye appeal

Quote:
It also has low eye appeal anyway even if it were straight graded

Quote:
...and to me lacks eye appeal

Quote:
Just not a very nice coin in my mind
Don't get me wrong, these are all legit opinions, and generally consistent with the quoted text I included earlier in blue from PCGS. I'm just curious why the reverse "circulation cameo" gets no props. And clearly, we're only talking about ED on the reverse...no one here feels the obverse would not straight grade, right? (just rhetorically as PCGS would obviously considered both sides of the coin to make a final assessment, and it seems if one side has severe dark toning then the whole coin gets ED'd, right?)

http://goccf.com/t/129321
Here's 25 pages on CCF of members posting "circulation cameo" specimens. I guess in a formal technical sense, the reverse of this 26-S has "low eye appeal" and "environmental damage" due to significant dark toning. But at the same time, clearly lots of collectors like "circulation cameo".

I'm just trying to reconcile the qualitative assessment of "low eye appeal" with an apparent appreciation for the look of "circulation cameo" by at least some collectors.

I dig the look, it's a semi-key date, and I paid only a fraction of greysheet, so I'm cool with it, and it actually looks better in hand than in these photos, the diagonal bands really pop whereas here they look quite flat...and maybe now I won't bother with a TPG submission since it's likely to just get 'details'.

Also, I take it PCGS restoration or NCS likely can't "fix" the low eye appeal env damage? PCGS restoration is meant for MS coins with spotty toning issues (and similar) right, then they just use MS70 or the like?
Edited by one_fine_dime
01/14/2021 7:57 pm
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 Posted 01/14/2021  8:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list

Quote:
Ok cool. Again, greysheet for XF40 is $190, I paid $52.

Ok great , but that's $190 for a no problem EF-40 and assuming it has decent eye appeal .
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 Posted 01/14/2021  8:35 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list

Quote:
Will PCGS Straight Grade This?


Odds are <10% that would straight grade. It has Environmental Damage as many have noted.
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 Posted 01/14/2021  9:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam_E to your friends list

Quote:
Here's 25 pages on CCF of members posting "circulation cameo" specimens. I guess in a formal technical sense, the reverse of this 26-S has "low eye appeal" and "environmental damage" due to significant dark toning. But at the same time, clearly lots of collectors like "circulation cameo".


IMO there's a fine line between "circulation cameo", which is something I personally enjoy, and environmental damage. To me, a lot of the coins in that thread don't have circulation cameo, but a layer of ED.

As to your coin in particular, the reverse does look like it would have potential if it were conserved. The way it looks right now is that it has a layer of crud caked onto it rather than a true "cameo"(also note the verdegris above AMERICA). But a proper conservation job would probably remove most of that and have a pretty nice look to it.

Unfortunately the obverse is not so nice, the surface is pitting due to heavy corrosion build up, there's nothing that can be done to reverse the loss of metal.

I know that the greysheet for an XF 26-S merc is $190+, but it's a conditional rarity, anything below XF and the value drops considerably, down to less than $30 even in VF. Almost every collector you ask would say they would rather own a problem free VF coin than an XF coin with ED, so you need to also use the VF price point as a reference when considering the value. You commonly see this with Morgan dollars that are conditionally rare in MS. Morgans that are slabbed UNC detail that would be worth 3-5K in even low MS sell for less than 1K, like this one:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dol...ption-071515

From the pictures it doesn't look too heavily cleaned and would probably be a mid grade MS if it weren't, but it sells for below AU-58 value because most people would prefer an AU coin to this.


To be clear, you didn't pay an absurdly high price, probably a bit more than I would have, but not too much more. The coin has potential to be conserved IMO, there's a lot on the surface there that, if removed, would significantly increase eye appeal. The only problem is that, as coinfrog said below, it may be harder to unload than a problem free coin. I would not recommend you send it in though, it wont gain enough resale value to justify the cost.
Edited by Adam_E
01/14/2021 9:41 pm
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 Posted 01/14/2021  9:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list
I guess $52 is about right if you collect problem coins. Easy to buy at this price, may be tough to sell.
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 Posted 01/14/2021  9:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add one_fine_dime to your friends list

Quote:
Odds are <10% that would straight grade
After reading most comments here, you're probably right...but sure, stuff like this gets a pass.
https://www.greatcollections.com/Co...-AU-55-Toned

PCGS-AU-55
1926-S-Mercury-Dime---Will-PCGS-Straight-Grade-This?
1926-S-Mercury-Dime---Will-PCGS-Straight-Grade-This?
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 Posted 01/14/2021  9:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add one_fine_dime to your friends list
@Adam_E -

"To me, a lot of the coins in that thread don't have circulation cameo, but a layer of ED."
Can you define what constitutes "a layer of ED" vs. non-ED toning? Is it just a matter of the severity, that after a point it is just qualitatively considered ED rather than toning?

"a layer of crud caked onto"
Doesn't this imply it is not ED toning? Based on the PCGS link I provided (with blue text), it seems PCGS is implying that ED of this type actually is a form of toning.

"the surface is pitting due to heavy corrosion build up, there's nothing that can be done to reverse the loss of metal."
Can you indicate where you see this "pitting" on the obverse, cause looking at the coin under a 10x loupe, I don't see anything like that.

Thanks.
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 Posted 01/14/2021  10:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam_E to your friends list

Quote:
Can you define what constitutes "a layer of ED" vs. non-ED toning? Is it just a matter of the severity, that after a point it is just qualitatively considered ED rather than toning?


As far as I am aware, that is correct. There's not a real point at which it becomes ED but rather a case by case basis because after all all toning no matter how attractive is technically ED. But in general: dark, black stains = ED.


Quote:
Doesn't this imply it is not ED toning? Based on the PCGS link I provided (with blue text), it seems PCGS is implying that ED of this type actually is a form of toning.


There may not be ED toning under it, like I said it may conserve nicely, but from my perspective I have to assume whatever I see on the coin is permanent.



Quote:
Can you indicate where you see this "pitting" on the obverse, cause looking at the coin under a 10x loupe, I don't see anything like that.


From behind my screen, the areas I would be particularly concerned with are between S and T of TRUST, behind the head, and right on the cheek in front of the hair curl. most of that looks like corrosion rather than just toning or staining IMO. I think it would be hard to tell for sure without removing the spotting and seeing what lies beneath.

Please keep in mind I am nowhere near an expert, this is completely my opinion and I could be completely wrong.
Edited by Adam_E
01/14/2021 10:12 pm
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